To not understand DD's thoughts about me

[Enlesio]

Anyone out there who understands child psychology?
11 year old DD.
Most gorgeous girl. Really, she is a wonderful, kind, beautiful and gentle little soul.
She shows me and demonstrates to me every day how much she loves me. I am 100% confident that we have a secure and loving relationship. She is very attached to me and always wants to be with me.
Yet, she is having intrusive thoughts about me that are really distressing her. She'll start crying and won't tell me what's wrong, but eventually after encouraging her to talk to me about why she's crying, she'll say she's having thoughts that say "I've got a bad mummy; my mummy isn't a good mummy; I want a different, better mummy; my mummy isn't as good as Evie's/Abigail's/Poppy's mummy." But these thoughts really distressing her and she gets extremely upset by them and tells them to go away but they won't stop. Then she gets petrified that she's upset me by having these thoughts and repeatedly says "Have I upset you by telling you that? Please don't believe it mummy, these are not my thoughts, they're lies, they're the very opposite to what I think". Sometimes she gets so distressed by these thoughts that she starts visibly trembling whilst crying silently with tears spilling down her cheeks. She gets lots of thoughts about how I look, too. She's forever telling me I look lovely, and she'll say "I think you look beautiful mummy". Then she gets thoughts that say "I think mummy's ugly/fat/dresses horribly/isn't beautiful" and then gets distressed by these thoughts and says they're the opposite to what is true. She feels bad, guilty, ashamed for having these thoughts and insists they're not what she actually thinks.
For context, she is suffering extremely high levels of anxiety over the past year and isn't sleeping well.
These intrusive thoughts only happen at bedtime as her anxiety rises.
What are they? Why are they so negative about me when I know full well she adores me? What exactly is going on?
Im finding it very complex and confusing and I don't know how to help her. It's quite hard to remain neutral when your DD is saying "My thoughts are telling me youre ugly, you're fat, you look terrible, your not as good at being a mummy as Molly's mummy, I wish I had a different mummy." Then crying in a truly heartbroken way and clinging to me begging for forgiveness and saying "Okease believe me mummy i do NOT think any of these things! These thoughts are coming into my head but I hatd them and they're the total opposite of what i really believe!"
Shes asking me how to make them ho away, but I don't know.
I completely out of my depth here.
Laying next to her as we speak after 2 hours of comforting and cuddling her through her anxiety and tears, and listening to her intrusive very negative thoughts about me, we've got white noise playing to help her settle to sleep. Yet she's had a really lovely, happy day, just like she always does.
I just feel like we are in a mess every evening and I don't know what to do.
This all started out of the blue in February.
Prior to that she fell asleep like a dream, slept through, no bedtime issues, no anxiety, no intrusive thoughts, no white noise needed.
Now it's like this every evening and the pair of us are both exhausted by it.
Can anyone explain why she's having such awful thoughts about me, when she clearly demonstrates every day how much she loves me?
And what do I do?

Beginnings of psychosis???

Another vote for OCD. My daughter has it and I do too. It’s nothing you’ve done OP, and although it’s horrific at times, especially when it’s new, it can get better.

Sadly no grandparents to help.
3 of them died long ago. Remaining one lives on a state pension alone.

I've just had a look at private therapy in my area. Mapf them don't advertise their fees, but 1 advert quotes £349 per session for DD's age.
PER SESSION.
I can't even begin to afford that!

It’s not psychosis relax. Stop trying to figure out why this is happening/what you did wrong, and just try get her some relief and help - even just reassuring her that intrusive thoughts are normal and as long as her intentions don’t align to them she’s ok, will be a huge reassurance.

She’s obv anxious and it’s coming out in different ways. That doesn’t mean you’ve done anything wrong, 11 is a big age for girls, hormones at play, doubts and worries. You mentioned she is SEN - I have adhd also and it manifests for me as a hyperactive mind.

When I was 16 my sister (17 years older then me) had a baby girl who I adored, and I had intrusive thoughts of me killing her whenever I was minding her etc. It got so bad I remember one time bursting in to tears and telling my sister I couldn’t look after her anymore as I was so scared because of these thoughts. I assumed I was a right psychopath and my niece was at risk, but I was also so confused because I had absolutely zero desire or intent to harm my niece. These thoughts terrified me but they wouldn’t stop.

My sister calmly told me that everyone has intrusive thoughts, but some have them worse then others and that not all of our thoughts are our feelings so try not to worry. She reminded me that my niece was my favourite person and vice versa, and she would trust no one any more with her kid than me. Your daughter is telling you she’s having these thoughts, but they’re not real or aligned to how she feels. That’s all very healthy and positive.

Upon delving into all my thoughts with therapy, it basically turned out that my intrusive thoughts were around my darkest fears. Which makes a lot of sense as even now with my little boy I have lots of intrusive thoughts about him getting ill/dying from an injury etc. I do a a gentle mantra when they happen “This is an intrusive thought. I don’t need to engage.This is just a thought this is not real life”. It hasn’t gone away fully, and ramps up when I am really anxious, but I am aware of what’s an intrusive thought vs a feeling now and they don’t scare me anymore. But when they started as a teenager I was terrified so just give her lots of comfort and reassurance.

I would get her booked into the GP and go from there.

@Enlesio If you can't afford therapy, there are things you can do. First of all, tell her that your feelings can not ever be hurt by any thoughts she has. You're ok. You're strong. And you're not perfect and dont need anyone, including her, to think you're the best or prettiest mum. You're a human and humans are imperfect.

Then , you can teach her thoughts don't need to be taken seriously. We all have thoughts. They are like passing clouds in the sky. They come and go. We are not our thoughts. We don't have to believe our thoughts. Good people can have bad, mean or false thoughts. We can just let them pass. Its ok. Our actions define us more. If we get a thought about hitting someone and then go on to do it - thats a problem. But if you are annoyed at someone and the thought of hitting them quickly crosses your mind and you dont act on it - its nothing you should feel guilty about.

Also, allow her to express negative feelings about things. She doesn't have to like and be grateful about everything. Its ok to think mummy is fat. As long as you don't say it to hurt. She's only little.

This is OCD. I would encourage her to tell you the thoughts, give her a huge cuddle and tell her not to worry. Everyone gets intrusive thoughts, to let them come, watch them like a wave that goes back into the ocean and pass over her. The more she holds onto the thought the more power it has. She is a sweet 11 year old girl who's OCD has attached onto thoughts of her most precious person. If it gets worse definitely speak to GP. if you panic and make it seem like something to really worry about, it will make it worse

You mention SEN. Does she have an EHCP and if not could you apply for one? It might include funding for specialist assessments and support. If you do have one and she’s struggling get your ducks in a row and call an early review.

@Enlesio don't panic.

Online support groups for both you and your daughter

here, here, here and here

May be talking it through with a professional will help going forward. 💐

I have relationship OCD and this sounds very similar but at 11 it's directed on her closest person who is her mum rather than partner or spouse. I also have ADHD and there is a big overlap between ADHD and OCD with shared underlying difficulties in regulating functions of other brain areas (attention or impulsive control in ADHD) and (repetitive thouggt and anxious response in OCD).

If there is anything in your budget you could cut to facilitate private treatment with a psychologist I would recommend but if not then get her on CAHMS waiting list and consider getting in touch with the psychology department of any university local to you who might be able to arrange therapy with a trainee psych (who will have a great deal of training and professional oversight).

Edited to add these thoughts likely do not represent reality or any underlying truth. If she is like me the reason they are so distressing to her is because they are so at odds with reality.

That seems wildly expensive! I would take a look on here: https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/ this is where I found my psychologist and she is £110 an hour and was one of the more expensive ones!

There are organisations that offer affordable counselling. Would be worth looking up what's available in your area. In the meantime, I would tell her that she's not mad or bad and all of us have odd thoughts at times. I used to have "bad" thoughts as a child and this is what my mum told me; she was very reassuring and said that thoughts are like clouds passing and we can just let them pass on essentially.

Totally agreed about the OCD, anecdotally hormones can be linked. So if she is mid puberty hormones might also be related. There is also a link with intrusive thoughts/anxiety and autism. Might not be relevant but mentioning in case that rings any bells.

Whilst you are trying to get support (CAMHs has huge waiting list here) some thoughts from a non medical person. Intrusive thoughts are common. Her knowing that may help. The worry about them can sometimes be worse than the actual thoughts. So being quite matter of fact (even if internally you are very, understandably freaked out). My approach would be that her ruminating on them probably isn’t going to be helpful. So whilst it’s good she doesn’t bottle it up, I’d also be fairly breezy “thank you for telling me. It’s okay I know you love me and I love you and that will never, ever change. How about mummy reads you a chapter of X book”.

My girl's OCD escalated once she started year 7.

We thought that we were helping her by reassuring her but it just made it worse until she had a breakdown. You need to get control.if this before it gets much further.

So, there are two books:
Challenging your OCD by Amita Jassi (I think). It's a workbook you work through with your child to start to begin to tackle the least scary thoughts. To do that, you need to sit with your daughter and rate which behaviour is the scariest. Critically, this book will explain to your daughter what OCD is. This book is especially good for children with the co-morbid condition of Autism.

Helping your child with anxiety and ocd. - this book is very good at showing you what you need to do to stop the ocd from growing. It means you can begin to tackle the ocd even.uf your daughter us too scared to tackle it herself do us a good starting point.

The only way that she will get better is for you to help her see that, even though it's scary, if she faces up to.hef fears, they will shrink. If she runs away from the fear, the fears will grow.

She needs an urgent referral to CAMHS as she needs an SSRI to start to tackle the OCD.

I think that it's really important that you let your child know that you know she doesn't mean any of these bad thoughts and that you know it's anxiety talking and not her. Make it clear that anxiety can't hurt you and you're not offended by those thoughts.

I've been.there. You're in for a big battle but you will get through this together.

OCD action.in Facebook are very helpful. You will get sound advice from them.

If your daughter us also autistic then she will need DBT with ERP not CBT. Quite frankly, CAMHS won't know much more than what you can read up on. Those books will help.you as, unfortunately, it's going to be you and your daughter doing the fighting here. But you've got this!

Sorry, the second book is called "Breaking free from childhood anxiety and OCD" by Lebowitz.

Sounds exactly like OCD; you can ring the OCD Action helpline and see what your options are - 0300 636 5478

My DD is 22 now, she showed signs of it from around 12/13 which I didn't realise, had to leave school and was more or less housebound for 6 years. We paid for a private diagnosis which was about £350 and this allowed us to bypass CAMHS who were crap anyway; most CAMHS practitioners won't want to deal with OCD but you do need to get her name on the waiting list in the meantime. But definitely talk to OCD Action or OCD UK:

https://ocdaction.org.uk
https://www.ocduk.org

@EnlesioPlease seek help for her via your GP & do not let it be batted away as “just anxiety”. Yes we all get upsetting thoughts at times but these thoughts are of a very different kind & highly distressing. It does sound exactly like OCD & your DD is doing what are called compensatory behaviours to try to negate, neutralise & prevent the harm she feels she’s caused by having them (eg to you overly complimenting you & clinging to you) and safety behaviours to try to prevent them from happening again. The handwashing could be part of the cycle of trying to cope with distress, frequency & nature of the intrusive thoughts where she may carry out behaviours that will become ritualised as a kind of safety mechanism eg if I don’t wash my hands x times the bad thoughts will come back etc.

The experience of such intrusive & upsetting thoughts is very distressing & the way in which people suffering OCD cope with them by carrying out safety behaviours, end up reinforcing the anxiety & maintaining it, ironically, rather than helping it go away. Through no fault of their own. The repetitive & fixated nature of being compelled (the C part for OCD) to carry out these compensatory behaviours is further distressing, anxiety inducing & problematic because once they become developed & relied upon to cope, they become harder to stop doing.

She sounds like she’s truly suffering from an Anxiety Disorder & needs specialist professional help. Self harming can often follow as a form of a safety or neutralising behaviour among others - so please don’t be put off going for fear of a long waiting list. The sooner she can get professional help the better. There may be other young people’s initiatives and MH services in the voluntary & charity sector local to you or nationwide, so please look these up too. But what is a huge step forward is that’s she shared these with you & so you can at least find a way to help her - which is a testament to having brought her up to be able to trust you & confide in you. So many young girls will internalise & try to cope themselves, which makes it even harder to work through. Good luck.

OP one inexpensive thing you could do is learn some mindfulness techniques and teach them to DD. Lots of books and podcasts available. One technique is to stop arguing with the intrusive thoughts and just watch all your thoughts come and go, maybe turn them into different shaped clouds or birds . So DD might think 'Here comes the Mummy Is Ugly thought like a small grey cloud... it's staying overhead for quite a long time... now it's gone and the Mummy Is Horrible cloud is drifting along.. now the sky is clear..' It can be very calming .

In addition to your GP you can also try contacting Young Minds https://www.youngminds.org.uk/

It is definitely OCD which is a high anxiety disorder. Speak to the GP ASAP to see what they can offer to help, especially if there’s a waiting list for CAMHS. Mine is only treatable with anti-psychotics which remove that little voice inside telling me the most awful of things.

I will say too that your little girl must love you very much for you to be the centre of her thoughts like that. That’s how OCD works… By twisting your best thoughts.

I thought this straight away, I’ve read a few similar threads that were a result of PANS or PANDAS and OP said this started quite suddenly.

I’ve quoted again and tagged @Enlesio in case your suggestion was missed.

I know it’s hard to diagnose and I had never heard about it in real life but there have been quite a few threads since I’ve been on mumsnet and they stuck in my mind.
This is probably because it’s not commonly known about and the OP was so relieved when they realised what the cause was and would likely never have worked it out without posting about it.

I had the exact same experience when I was 11. I think it was also triggered by hormones as I had my first period shortly after I started getting these intrusive thoughts. Unfortunately, my parents were not understanding at all. Your daughter is very lucky to have you.

As others have said, I had to learn to separate myself from the thoughts. To not make a big deal out of them. I’d treat them like they were coming from a different person and respond in my mind by replying ‘well that’s a weird thing to say…anywho’ and move on. Acknowledge it but don’t feel bad. I like someone’s idea of giving the thoughts a name like Brenda - adds a bit of humour to it (Brenda’s off again!)

That really helped. I would see a GP just with the caveat that for me anyway, the less of a big deal that was made of it, the easier it was to control.

Hope all goes well for both of you OP.

CAMHS referral.
Talk with pastoral care / SEN department because this kind of thing could tip into her not going to school.
Should she be in mainstream?

Read up on calming / distraction techniques. For my DD we have found the following helpful:
. Cross body slow tapping of shoulders
. 54321 5 things you can see, 4 you can hear ...
. Animal alphabet naming Ant, Bear, Capybara, ...

There is a balance between reassuring and challenging, but we found reassurance when tired or over anxious, and challenging on better days worked best for us.

We also used meds, but DD was older. The GP has limited options under 18 but maybe would prescribe something to help her be less anxious at night (eg propranolol)

Look on the children's mental health board. There is i think a facebook group called Not Fine in School.

It’s ocd I would think. You’ll have to straight to gp. OCD is usually fear based, so if she’s having thoughts that you’re not a god mummy, she has a fear around that thought. She could be worried that something bad will happen you or tht you’ll stop being a good mummy. Has there been any recent changes? Any reason for her ti have these anxieties?