To not understand DD's thoughts about me

[Enlesio]

Anyone out there who understands child psychology?
11 year old DD.
Most gorgeous girl. Really, she is a wonderful, kind, beautiful and gentle little soul.
She shows me and demonstrates to me every day how much she loves me. I am 100% confident that we have a secure and loving relationship. She is very attached to me and always wants to be with me.
Yet, she is having intrusive thoughts about me that are really distressing her. She'll start crying and won't tell me what's wrong, but eventually after encouraging her to talk to me about why she's crying, she'll say she's having thoughts that say "I've got a bad mummy; my mummy isn't a good mummy; I want a different, better mummy; my mummy isn't as good as Evie's/Abigail's/Poppy's mummy." But these thoughts really distressing her and she gets extremely upset by them and tells them to go away but they won't stop. Then she gets petrified that she's upset me by having these thoughts and repeatedly says "Have I upset you by telling you that? Please don't believe it mummy, these are not my thoughts, they're lies, they're the very opposite to what I think". Sometimes she gets so distressed by these thoughts that she starts visibly trembling whilst crying silently with tears spilling down her cheeks. She gets lots of thoughts about how I look, too. She's forever telling me I look lovely, and she'll say "I think you look beautiful mummy". Then she gets thoughts that say "I think mummy's ugly/fat/dresses horribly/isn't beautiful" and then gets distressed by these thoughts and says they're the opposite to what is true. She feels bad, guilty, ashamed for having these thoughts and insists they're not what she actually thinks.
For context, she is suffering extremely high levels of anxiety over the past year and isn't sleeping well.
These intrusive thoughts only happen at bedtime as her anxiety rises.
What are they? Why are they so negative about me when I know full well she adores me? What exactly is going on?
Im finding it very complex and confusing and I don't know how to help her. It's quite hard to remain neutral when your DD is saying "My thoughts are telling me youre ugly, you're fat, you look terrible, your not as good at being a mummy as Molly's mummy, I wish I had a different mummy." Then crying in a truly heartbroken way and clinging to me begging for forgiveness and saying "Okease believe me mummy i do NOT think any of these things! These thoughts are coming into my head but I hatd them and they're the total opposite of what i really believe!"
Shes asking me how to make them ho away, but I don't know.
I completely out of my depth here.
Laying next to her as we speak after 2 hours of comforting and cuddling her through her anxiety and tears, and listening to her intrusive very negative thoughts about me, we've got white noise playing to help her settle to sleep. Yet she's had a really lovely, happy day, just like she always does.
I just feel like we are in a mess every evening and I don't know what to do.
This all started out of the blue in February.
Prior to that she fell asleep like a dream, slept through, no bedtime issues, no anxiety, no intrusive thoughts, no white noise needed.
Now it's like this every evening and the pair of us are both exhausted by it.
Can anyone explain why she's having such awful thoughts about me, when she clearly demonstrates every day how much she loves me?
And what do I do?

I am so sorry this is happening to your daughter. I would go to the GP and get a CAMHS referral asap then keep on at them about the urgency of it.

Your next port of call is to talk to the school. Often they have counsellors who may be able to see her.

I would ring around local child psychologists and see if anyone does reduced rates.

Apply for an EHCP if she doesn’t have one already.

I would apply for DLA. That money could go towards private therapy. The website work and benefits costs £20 a year but it’s worth it as their guides for doing the form are excellent.

I would start ringing around charities specialising in children and mental health. Some of these also provide free therapy and advice.

Good luck. It does sound like OCD and the earlier you get help the better her chance of managing it x

Oh also OP ask your GP about right to choose if you are in England. This system means that you could potentially get a private diagnosis but free on the NHS and it would take three months not three years.

I agree with PP that it sounds like OCD from my experiences growing up with my sister, her intrusive thoughts and hand washing began when she was about ten. She did struggle throughout her teenage years without medication/counselling but is now a happy and successful young woman, and a brilliant mum herself.

It must be so difficult to go through as a parent, I know mine struggled- especially my mum as she bore the brunt of it. Please recognise how special and important it is that she feels able to confide in you. You're clearly an excellent mum and I'm sure you can navigate this together ❤️

Edited to add- If it does transpire to be OCD, I read a book called 'the man who couldn't stop' which was hugely helpful in understanding and supporting a loved one suffering

You’re going to get a lot of help and support here but also some misinformation so I would really recommend reading about OCD. The first thing to say is that this definitely isn’t psychosis so please don’t worry on that score. But OCD ratchets up really quickly and you do need to help her - even a couple of therapy sessions with a good therapist will help break the cycle. I would read - straight away - David Veale’s book Overcoming Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - there’s an e book you could start on today. Read it yourself and read it with her - to understand why the handwashing etc makes the thoughts worse rather than better. She needs to understand the cycles in order to break them. If you write to Veale’s secretary for his private work she will be able to recommend good therapists who work with children if you do decide to go down that route. But Camhs may well get you into the system quickly so do try that today too - via the GP and you can simultaneously get a referral through school and school may have onsite therapists who can see her more quickly. It’s important they understand her underlying fears - what does she fear will happen if she doesn’t wash her hands? - and help her face those fears - if you can be part of that process then you can do a lot of work together between sessions but you need professional guidance! Sorry you’re going through this but it’s classic OCD and can be helped.

I read your first post and wanted to say my just 12yo is having similar problems at bedtimes. Their thoughts aren't identical but there are definite similarities and you have my empathy.

Then I continued reading your whole thread and wow, what an amazing and helpful lot of knowledge and resources from other posters! I am so grateful you started this thread and brought so many helpful things together which have opened my eyes about my own child.

The one useful thing I might be able to contribute is to ask does your DD have DLA? If she has SEN, extra help at school and anxiety/OCD symptoms causing real impacts on her daily living and need for care she might qualify. There are several rates so it's possible she is eligible for something. Although it's a massive and difficult undertaking to apply, it could ultimately pay for a few sessions of private therapy.

My 12yo (who has an EHCP) is getting into quite a state about difficult thoughts at bedtime and I'm sure hormones are playing a part. We've been in the habit of listening to various comforting audiobooks and a kids relaxation meditation at bedtime which helps. Bedtime is a lengthy process.

Difficult though it can be I have sometimes found agreeing with the basic reality in an intrusive thought eg obsessive worry about the cat dying, can help take the wind out of it's sails. Yes the cat will die one day and it will be very sad. The cat is young and healthy now and we can enjoy being together. Helping the thought to reduce in size as it were.

Apologies if this is wrong - I haven't read up the links yet.

I wanted to say something about the psychosis suggestion. My immediate reaction was to wonder if the person who mentioned it had any expertise or lived experience. It seemed an alarmist and throwaway remark. As it happens I have a relative whose partner unfortunately suffered psychosis out of the blue as an adult. Their disturbing thoughts, which thankfully they communicated, were much more detached from the real world. Obviously I have no medical knowledge but other posters saying it sounds like OCD makes a lot more sense to me! (This adult got rapid help and long term support. Difficult though their journey has been they were able to continue a high flying career and family life. It wasn't the end of the world.)

All the best @Enlesio, keep being solid and reassuring. Gain confidence through support and information, keep reaching out. 🌺

Sounds like she needs some professional support with this. You poor things, what a worry. I would speak to her GP and her school in the first instance.

If it helps to hear, when it comes to intrusive thoughts it is absolutely not the case that they represent anything like your subconscious or your actual beliefs. They're often thoughts which are the opposite to your values and beliefs. It's an anxious brain fixating on its worst fears.

Your daughter loves you and is very attached, so her anxious brain is fixating on the idea of you being horrible. Distressing for her and you, but not the smallest sign that it's how she really feels or anything like that.

Keep reassuring her that you know it's not what she thinks, and that you're completely confident that she loves you. Tell her that thoughts are like pebbles which are dropped into a pond - they make ripples but they're not the pond itself and they will pass. Help her try to acknowledge the thoughts' existence without worrying that they're true or real. They will pass, and not change who she is.

Contact your GP for a referral to CAMHS (there are horrendously long wait times and service delivery varies from area to area so I’d consider going privately if you can afford it) and also contact these people for some advice. https://www.hearing-voices.org/#content

Definitely not psychosis but sounds like OCD for sure -
GP
referral to Cahms - it’s long wait but get on the list
https://ocdaction.org.uk/
read up as much as u can about OCD
how u respond to this will be highly significant in how she responds to this -

No - don’t go down the hearing voices route - totally inappropriate

the compulsive handwashing, the distressing egodystonic intrusive thoughts - all about OCD

What SEN does she have?

Perfect response here -
Poster clearly a professional who works with OCD, like myself.

There are some useful books on here both for parents and workbooks for young people. Includes some of the ones already mentioned.
https://uk.jkp.com/search?q=ocd&options%5Bprefix%5D=last

It's almost 100% not the beginning of psychosis. As others have said, it sounds like it could be OCD, which is really just exaggerated anxiety.
https://amzn.eu/d/31Aq5p2
This book will be helpful for you

My brother has OCD and it manifested around age 11 and he had intrusive thoughts about our mum (obsessions) and then compulsions too.

I’m sorry you are going through this.

Get the works books suggested above. Take time and slow down and be prepared to give up activities and events until you have a handle on this. Be led by the child so of they don’t want to do it don’t make the

OCD is really is not what popular media would have you think it is.

I’ve started using headspace this year as an adult. There are also some good kids stuff on there. It’s not therapy but meditation based practice an I love the sleep cast they are so beautiful. They each have a wind down on And the breathing and noting has helped me enormously. It a great chill out. There is kids section you can do together. I get it free as a teacher. But I would pay for it. What I did learn from head space is that thought and feelings aren’t the same thing. We can note thoughts as thoughts and feelings a a feelings. Thoughts can be batted away (in bat mine away with a baseball bat).

I developed OCD when I was 17 and it felt like it came from nowhere and ramped up really quickly. For me, it started with leaving for college in the morning but then having to turn around and go back to check I’d shut the front door. Sounds normal to most except it wasn’t, I’d have to go back and check however many times my brain had convinced me that day was necessary, this could be 5+ times meaning my education was suffering because I was late constantly. It then gradually took on new “themes”, suddenly I had to check every switch in the house was off, the cooker was off, the hair straighteners were off multiple times until it felt “right” - I had and still have a camera roll full of pictures of empty plug sockets to try and appease the thoughts of “what if I didn’t do it correctly”. It all came to a head when I was 26, in a professional career, and started convincing myself I’d sent people horrible stuff in emails. I’d respond and then immediately the thoughts of “what if I’ve called them a cunt?” (Even if I did not think they were) would creep in and I’d have to go back to my sent box and check which again impacted productivity. I’d also have to take pictures of any letters I sent and the inside of the envelope or id convince myself I’d put something horrible in there. I’d have to go back and check I hadn’t sent my friends horrible texts, or convince myself I’d posted something horrible about someone on my social media (which I know I’d never do- so irrational!). My friend who also suffered would arrive home and get someone to check her car for signs of damage as she’d become anxious that she might have run someone over and not noticed.

Mine was a form of harm OCD which came from high levels of anxiety that if I didn’t do all my little rituals, someone would get hurt and it’d all be my fault. It was completely debilitating however I went onto antidepressants and the level of the thoughts decreased HUGELY within the first few weeks. I don’t know what they’ll do for your daughter OP but there is hope

There have been a couple of mentions of PANS PANDAS on this thread, so I just thought I’d jump on with some information about it. A friend of mine has twins with the condition, they’re around your daughter’s age, OP. She’s an amazing woman, and has advocated really really hard for them. These leaflets were produced by the lobbying group she’s involved with. I hope they help.

You need to get a referral to CAMHs or see a private therapist. Sounds like the start of OCD in its ‘pure’ form. My DS has it (he’s an adult). I’m sure he had it when younger but couldn’t ‘name’ it then.

Agree with everyone that these are classic OCD symptoms which fit with her having generally high anxiety- I have quite a lot of experience with CAMHS and while waits for things like ADHD assessments can be very long, when a child is in crisis they can be very quick indeed. At age 11 my daughter was self harming and I called the GP who did a CAMHS referral, they assessed her within a few days and saw her about 2 weeks later and she had weekly therapy for 2 years. They were honestly amazing so please do give your GP a call.

This is terrible advice. Don’t wait to see if it gets worse, you need to contact a GP today and get her onto a waiting list immediately. Also, telling someone not to worry doesn’t really work, does it? Not everyone gets intrusive thoughts either.

When my DD was a similar age she had a massive battle with Social Anxiety. She was referred to CAMHS and seen pretty quickly - she had educational type sessions that helped her with strategies.

I believe that within CAMHS different pathways have different waiting times - in my area waiting times to be seen in regards to Autism can take years but as I say this wasn't our experience.

My advice would be to contact your GP today to get the process started and have a conversation with school next week (I assume she already has an IEP within school?)

I actually have OCD started at her age and this is what really helped me! GP didn't

You haven't failed - but I really understand you feeling that way. My DD started with similar behaviours at 7. She's 18 now and manages her OCD pretty well most of the time. She's also been assessed for ASD which is also a factor. I felt absolutely awful when I realised what my DD was struggling with.
But with knowledge you can do a lot. There's good advice on this thread and generally any threads about OCD in children. Once you understand what you're dealing with you can help your DD. Your thoughts don't define you, they are 'just' thoughts.
My DD has never experienced psychosis. She's got much better at recognising intrusive thoughts and whilst the contamination issues are ongoing she's able to live a happy and engaged life. I won't say don't worry, but equally - don't despair.

Your daughter sounds lovely and she will be fine with the support you will give her as a kind understanding Mum. I was in the same position as you six years ago my daughter is now 18 and doing really well. Please start with the books while you wait for professional help. It really will make a difference to her knowing what it is and knowing strategies she can follow to lessen its impact. Also, knowing that it is very common and lots of people have suffered and got better will help you both. By the time my daughter saw a therapist she was in a much better place to understand her anxiety was at the root of it and became confident quickly that this would pass. You have on your side that she is young and will therefore respond will to the support she gets from you and a good therapist. To end on a positive what she learns about herself now will help her no end for teenage years and beyond. Wishing you all the love and luck in the world👍💪❤️

She needs a therapist. She has anxiety of some form but a professional needs to help her work through it

I’m glad it helped you, but trying to get professional help as soon as possible is far more important for most people. Especially as the medical profession understands mental health conditions a lot better these days. Given how long waiting lists can be, getting onto the list now instead of waiting for it to get worse is just sensible.

I’d argue though, the fact you think EVERYONE has intrusive thoughts might suggest you weren’t helped as much as you could have been. I don’t know the actual stats, but I am a mental health first aider and if anyone were to come to me and mention intrusive thoughts, that would definitely be an immediate sign post to the GP for a referral to mental health services & to our EAP for access to immediate counselling. We definitely weren’t told that everyone had intrusive thoughts and that no action was needed,