To have not lied to DS about trans actor in Last Christmas?

[DungOnATwig]

Watching above with DD17 (lesbian) and DS11 (straight) earlier today. One scene where a female presenting (long hair + fake eyelashes) but clearly biologically male actor plays a doctor (just Dr). DS says "that......lady sounds like a man".

I said yeah it is a man love. A man who identifies as a sex they are not.

DD paused then typed a wee bit more furiously than usual for 30 secs but then was ok. She knows tbf. She's lesbian and not pan.

It was so distilled down to me at the point of his very innocent (and tentative so as not to offend question) that I am not prepared to lie to my kid about the fucking fundamentals of life and tell them that person is a woman. Fuck that.

Merry Christmas 🍷

Also FUCK THAT FILM 😭😭😭😭😭

And, as you yourself pointed out, whether a man masquerading as a woman (in the original sex based meaning) can be identified as such always, sometimes or never is totally irrelevent to whether female-sex-specific language, spaces or support are justifiable (they are) or practical to achieve in practice (they are - the potential of that a small number of dishonest men may be able to con their way in does not preclude the value in general. And the longer such men are present and the more they interact, the greater the chance of them being found out.)

And also, whether a man masquerading as a woman (in the original sex based meaning) can be identified as such always, sometimes or never is totally irrelevent to whether he is somehow an exception that can be treated as actually a woman. He isn't, and he should never be so. Because "looking like a woman" and being a woman are totally different things.

Une image de pipe n'est pas une pipe, et un homme qui ressemble visuellement à une femme n'est pas une femme.

I don't know why you've written this to me because I have never suggested that they are not men or that they should be treated other than as men in women only spaces.

Facial features
Gait
Hips
Shoulders
Head size

Yes. I'm emphasising it so it does not get lost in the focus on who can tell what about how.

A list of a "typical" female's measures.

You are no better than the trans warriors, you are defining being a woman exactly the same way they do.

What?
They are features that both sexes have. They just look different for each sex

I define a woman as an adult human female

Not reliably they don't.

Facial features - men don't reliably have faces?
Gait - the majority of men dont reliably walk?
Hips - men don't reliably have hips?
Shoulders - men don't reliably have shoulders?
Head size - men don't reliably have heads?

Not usually. But that post was. I now realise you were referring to the differences not been reliable rather than the existence of those features.

I don't agree that you can't reliably sex people based on those features.

Obviously you can never say never, in terms of trans identifying men 'passing'.

But what puzzles me is this ... what transwomen in the public eye are deemed to 'pass'? Because honestly, I haven't come across anyone. Certainly those who have been puberty blocked come closer (Jazz Jennings and the like) but even then, there's something that gives it away. I'd be keen to know what people think.

I'm talking about footage of people moving/speaking btw, not just still photos.

No she isn’t, because TRAs say being a woman is about feeling and identity and nothing to do with those things.

Exactly.

I haven't come across any either. I posted up thread that there are lots of biological men who identify as not men in the public eye and they are all clearly male. I also said that the men who have had multiple surgeries (feminising?) still look like men just very weird looking men (Munroe Bergdorf).

You must have missed articles like the BBC magazine one recently that was about ‘10 Animals that can change sex’ - those are biological facts too!

Humans aren’t one of those animals.

Exactly the opposite, in fact.

Were any mammals on that list? No thete weren't, because mammals can't change sex.

Have we really circled back to 'clownfish can change sex so therefore a human male can turn into a female' nonsense?

Google Gabi Garcia. She's a female combat sports athlete. She's 6'2, weighs over 200lbs (nearly 15 stone). All muscle. Massive hands, square jaw, broad shoulders. Deep voice. I guarantee that if you saw her walk into a bathroom you'd assume she was trans (and ironically she'd be far more capable of doing you harm than any trans person you're likely to come across).

This 'I can tell' thing is such an odd and petty subsection of this debate, when there are far more important things going on. Yet it's brought up every time, without fail.

It's actually very offensive of you to say we can't.

How on earth is it offensive? Firstly, nobody is saying you 'can't'. People are saying that you can't always. And they're right. Just because you can identify many/most trans people, doesn't mean there aren't people out there who can't 'pass' in certain situations.

I've only interacted with - to my knowledge - two trans people. One - an old friend - is very obviously trans. Another I met at an event. The organiser had told us beforehand that an old friend of his we'd never met was bringing their trans partner. Our social group has an 'anything goes' sense of humor and he didn't want anyone getting upset.

I feel embarrassed to say it, but it was a large event and many of us spent the evening 'trans spotting', as we tried to figure out who it was. Late in the evening, a group of about 20 people were socializing outside and somebody blurted it out, at which point a person we'd all been stood talking to for about an hour out their hand up and said "Oh, that's me."

To suggest that person didn't pass in that situation would be ridiculous.

I really don't like this characterisation of the issue. No reasonable, nominally intelligent person believes or has suggested that a biological man can 'turn into' a biological woman. The issue is whether we as a society should treat a trans person as a woman, socially and legally.

You mean a male trans person, right?

Also, the fact that “sex changing animals” are being brought up does suggest that people think it’s the same kind of thing as men “changing” into women. Men are not women, it’s not possible. There is zero reason to “treat them as women, legally and socially” even though they really really want it.

Also, the fact that “sex changing animals” are being brought up does suggest that people think it’s the same kind of thing as men “changing” into women.

I don't think anyone - in good faith - believe's that they're the same kind of thing. I think anyone bringing that up is trying to be facetious, looking to get a reaction or extremely dim.

There is zero reason to “treat them as women, legally and socially” even though they really really want it.

Many will agree, many will disagree, and that's why it's an ongoing issue that will likely take a long time to be fully hashed out, if it ever is.