To have not lied to DS about trans actor in Last Christmas?

[DungOnATwig]

Watching above with DD17 (lesbian) and DS11 (straight) earlier today. One scene where a female presenting (long hair + fake eyelashes) but clearly biologically male actor plays a doctor (just Dr). DS says "that......lady sounds like a man".

I said yeah it is a man love. A man who identifies as a sex they are not.

DD paused then typed a wee bit more furiously than usual for 30 secs but then was ok. She knows tbf. She's lesbian and not pan.

It was so distilled down to me at the point of his very innocent (and tentative so as not to offend question) that I am not prepared to lie to my kid about the fucking fundamentals of life and tell them that person is a woman. Fuck that.

Merry Christmas 🍷

Also FUCK THAT FILM 😭😭😭😭😭

Different species? How? Male and female humans, surely.

Ugly woman? FFS.

Yes, how dare the vulnerable sex that are raped, abused, experience domestic violence etc fear the predator and oppressor sex. How very dare we! Don't we know that our natural instinct is 'wrong'?

I feel sorry for you that you need to use gaslighting and DARVO because you, despite it being explained to you at least 10 times, STILL think it's about being 'feminine' and 'unfeminine' when it isn't and NEVER HAS BEEN. One can only presume you are posting in bad faith because no one would keep going on about 'feminine looks' when it has been explained so, so many times to you now. You are willfully not getting it. The damage you do to womens rights, reducing us to 'feminine looks' is beneath contempt.

Why would you bet that? I have seen OP has clarified fuck that film was because of the ending, I thought that it was to reflect their beliefs. I personally just don’t see how it impacts other people how someone may identify, and live their lives. I get it’s a big topic especially recently so I do respect that people are going to disagree - my point is that some of my thinking is impacted by just generally not being so bothered by other people and certainly not denying how they view themselves. I hope that makes sense, and again I respect people won’t agree

When males are in female only safe single sex spaces, it impacts women and girls, especially rape survivors like me.

When males are taking women and girls scholarships, sports medals, etc, it impacts women and girls.

When male crimes are counted as female crimes, it impacts how data is collated. I read somewhere that in the UK, a third of all rapes are considered to have been committed by 'women'. We all know this is not true.

Further ways males identifying as women impacts the female sex class:

That fear is entirely rational and I have empathised with it.

It isn't me defining men and women by how they look, my whole argument is that you can't.

It's your refusal to accept that there could possibly be a male who masquerades as female so convincingly that that you don't realise it, and by the same token you couldn't possibly accept that there are women who present as so masculine that you would mistake them for a man and challenge them in ladies loo, which is reducing sex to how people look.

Exactly the way the trans lobby are. Your argument is the same one, that men and women are defined by how they look, move and behave.

How can you not see how biological men in women’s spaces impacts women? I mean har you not engaged or do you not care because it doesn’t affect you?

No actually. Every single person knows what sex they are. The law is clear that single sex spaces means exactly that. So any man that wants access to women's spaces needs to respect women's rights, respect the law and desist.

You think i disagree with that.

I don't.

What I disagree with you over is whether or not it's 100% achievable.

It isn't, unless you intend to force people to strip before they can use a public loo.

Obviously there are always people in society who take the piss. Many people drink and drive and speed in residential areas. Let’s not welcome them in with a red carpet though maybe? Can we at least as a society tell these men they aren’t welcome in female only spaces?

It's a 100% achievable for some single sex spaces. Prisons know the sex of their inmates and hospitals know the sex of their patients

I'm not sure how that comment added anything really. Are you going to suggest that we run sports club changing rooms like prisons or hospitals?

No, I'm suggesting that in the vast majority of cases we can tell someone's sex without asking them to strip off and even if there are some men that are apparently indistinguishable from women that is not a good reason not to have single sex spaces .

Do you think men were put in womens Prisons because no one realised they were men?

I think you are missing the point that prisons and hospitals have not been running single sex facilities as single sex.

This is because the trans lobby have tried to make the world believe they are bigots if they state facts.

Well as I said, I am not clear on your point here.

So if that is not what you think, what is it that you do think?

Based only on what you have said and making no inference whatsoever, I understand that you feel that because men (actual men) who try to present as "women" are obviously, to some women at least, not in fact women, some women (actual women) may feel they have to meet "feminine" standards they did not previously feel were necessary.

I do not agree with this, but that is by the by. I understand that is what you think.

But the thing is, so what? Why are you saying this? Assuming you are in fact correct here, what do you think should be different, or be done differently, to solve the problem?

I think women are feeling judged on their femininity by women in this discussion by the insistence that there are women who can identify every single trans male to female.

I think that because I am experiencing it. Earlier in the thread somebody says that a model is obviously a male because of the length of the neck. My neck is at least as long as that model's, possibly a tad longer. My shoulders are both broader and squarer.

I think women should stop arguing that they can tell in every instance whether someone is male or female. The fact is that they only know the ones they have spotted. They don't know how many they have been near and not realised.

I loathe the way the male to female trans lobby define being female on the basis of how someone looks, dresses and acts and I wish the women who assert that they can recognise every single male to female trans person could see the self evident point that their argument is exactly the same.

Both sides of this argument are actively demeaning women who do not present on the feminine end of the spectrum.

I also think men should stay out of women's spaces full stop and be told so. But then again I think men should not rape women, full stop, and they have already been told so. And I have absolutely no hope that either of those situations will ever be 100% achieved because as far as I can see there is no practical way of making that happen.

I also think there are four sets of trans people. Those who believe they were born in the wrong body and have felt that way all their lives. (2 sets MtoF and FtoM), those who hit problems dealing with the adult world looming at them and think not going through puberty will fix that, and the autogynophiles, who are turned on by the idea of being women.

And I think those people need treating in 3 entirely separate ways, but I have no idea how that could be made to happen.

I believe that the aggressive male to female trans lobby has done immense harm to women, gay people and trans people in this country.

I think women are feeling judged on their femininity by women in this discussion by the insistence that there are women who can identify every single trans male to female.

Being able to identify women and men is nothing to do with feminity and masculinity it's about being a female or a male.

You can be the most unfeminine woman but still be easily identifiable as a female

And that is where we disagree and there is no future to this discussion here or in the wider world while you insist on 100% being able to identify male from female.

I can't and I don't believe you can, you only think you can because you have never knowingly come across anyone where you have been wrong.

Bit of an assumption that all women who have been mis-sexed feel judged as ‘unfeminine’. Many of us genuinely don’t care. With my tall, broad build, large hands and feet, and a preference for comfortable clothing, I was never going to look conventionally feminine without more effort than I was generally willing to invest. That’s me. I’m OK as I am. I’ve been mis-sexed many times. But as soon as I moved or spoke my femaleness became apparent. Because the visible attributes of being female are the result of our sexed bodies, eg smaller larynx, wider hips, etc. Sure, some men can perform femininity, but that’s all it is: a performance, a choice, a veneer.

I’d rather be assessed as unfeminine and therefore challenged in a women’s space (yes, that’s has happened) than a femininity-performing man go unchallenged because a woman worried she might offend another women.

I didn't say anything about everyone being able to identify sex 100% of the time. My comment was more to do with feminity not being the basis on which people identify the sex of others.

It's possible that there are some men that I would mistake for a women I just think it's unlikely. I can say that there are no famous out transwomen that I am aware of that i would mistake for women

Some people can tell the difference every time

some people can virtually never tell the difference (if they were dressed stereotypically)

and the majority are somewhere in between

(my dad thinks that all of the drag queens on rupauls drag race are women 🤷🏻)

Nobody knows whether they can tell the difference all the time!

All they can know is that they have never knowingly not been able to tell.

My comment was more to do with feminity not being the basis on which people identify the sex of others.

What are you using then?

Every time this discussion comes up people start showing me pictures of skeletons and talking about square jaws and big hands.

What are you using of you are not using the typical measures of being female or male?

Bit of an assumption that all women who have been mis-sexed feel judged as ‘unfeminine’.

Was that aimed at me?

Nobody on this thread has said this.