To be annoyed about the guy who took his top off in a roomful of women?

[naturenaturenature]

I belong to a community choir and we had our Christmas concert recently. There was a room set aside for us to put our bags and coats in. It was a small room and jam packed after the concert with people collecting their bags.

The make up of the choir is predominantly middle aged and older women with a small number of men.

After the concert finished, we all went to the room to retrieve our bags. When I walked in, one of the men was standing in the corner with his top off and he didn't seem to be in a rush to put one back on. No one else was getting changed.

AIIBU to think it was out of order for him to do that? I feel I want to report him as I'm just sick of men doing shit like this. I've had more than my fair share of poor treatment of every kind over the years and I'm absolutely sick of it. If he wanted to get changed he should have gone to the toilet. I felt very uncomfortable. I didn't feel he was any kind of threat but just WHY? No one was impressed.

AIBU to report him to the choir leader?

How do we know there was no good reason for him to have taken his top off?

😆 the two extremes of mumsnet; you'll scream "misogyny" when he sits with his legs too far apart on the bus, but you won't acknowledge it when he 'displays' like an alpha to his captive female audience (it's not like the beach at all, ffs), and all because you're tripping over yourselves to show how 'cool' you are about it. 🙄

Do women feel anxious or mortified about seeing men on the beach or at swimming pools with their tops off, as opposed to feeling that way about wearing swimming attire themselves?

Why are you claiming this is “social behaviour normally deemed perfectly acceptable” when it’s not?

So what if there was? Read the room Bob and take it elsewhere!!

I’m with you OP, that’s odd behaviour. But not quite odd enough to raise it with anyone if it’s a one-off.

I understand.
It was an inappropriate and unnecessary thing to do that breeched etiquette. When people do these things, it indicates a lack of respect for normal boundaries and a level of entitlement to do as they please. When men in particular act this way, it is discomforting because who wants to be around an entitled man who doesn't understand or respect social boundaries?
If I were you I'd not 'report' him, because these behaviours are most usefully challenged in the moment. Reporting after the event something that a lot of people won't understand the problem with (they are thinking on the surface level of there being nothing wrong with a man showing his chest rather than seeing it as a man behaving inappropriately in the context) will likely gain little support.
If it starts to become regular, or he does other things that breech boundaries or make you feel uncomfortable, I'd flag it up then.

No, it is not about consent. People do not need to get consent to change their shirts in a changing area when it doesn't involve showing a part of the body not normally considered to be indecent. Would you expect to have to get everyone's consent in that situation to, say, taking off a long-sleeved jumper when you are wearing something sleeveless underneath?

I would not have cared, nor been traumatised. I would however, have clocked that the behaviour was akin to a dog pissing against a tree. Sure, there are places where topless men are everywhere. The gym, the beach etc.

In that situation, I guess some men might do it. Would my dad have?, no. My brothers? No. My husband? No.

Etiquette. Thank you, that’s the word I couldn’t think of! Sums it up very well.

You are!

I've been in this post-performance situation many times and it's quite normal for people (men and women) to strip off a bit to change after a show. Maybe this isn't the case for your choir, but maybe it's something he is used to doing elsewhere. No one wants to queue up to use the (often only) toilet just to change their top. So this sounds like normal behaviour to me. You say he wasn't putting another top on - how long were you watching him not put another top on for? A minute? Five minutes? Ten? Maybe he was feeling warm after the show and needed to cool off a bit?

However, you clearly found this very triggering, because of past trauma. I think you just need to take yourself out of this kind of situation, so not be in that communal changing space after the performance, or be very quick, just grab your things and leave. It's unfortunate that you have such a strong reaction to this man. Maybe it's more than just seeing him half naked. Maybe you feel oppressed by his personality as well. I don't think you can expect him to be different than he is. It's that thing of 'you can't control what someone else does but you can control how you respond'.

How is that relevant? Why would you feel more delicate about the awful prospect of seeing the upper half of men's bodies in the winter? I do hope you don't watch Strictly, you must really suffer.

How do you know his motivation, especially if you didn't hang around watching? You can't even have been able to see him that easily in such a crowded room, and for all you know he just got distracted talking to someone, or felt a bit hot, or even unwell.

As the seemingly ever growing MN cliche goes - Disagreeing with someone is not being rude. It's just disagreeing.

This seems to be trying to create a drama where one does not really exist. Given it's a time of year where, people have more dramas than usual this looks particularly odd, jarring and massively innocent.

Genuinely I wish this was my great problem in life.

I'm really left going 'huh, what?!' It's the type of thread that goes viral for it's bonkersness.

How does a few minutes in a crowded cloakroom become "all the time"? This is getting ridiculous.

A man being bare chested is not the same as a person wearing a sleeveless top in our culture. Otherwise we'd see bare chested men in the board room, good restaurants and theatres during heatwaves. The closest comparator would be a woman standing around for a prolonged period wearing just her bra in a mixed sex space used by a choir.
Something doesn't need to cross into 'indecency' for it to be socially unacceptable in a particular context.

Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest.

I took my top off/changed in an area that wasn’t that private - if anyone saw my bra then I hope they weren’t traumatised (changed in to a concert t - shirt). Ignore and move on. If he was bottomless that’s different but I can’t get too upset about a man’s torso. What do you do at the beach?

But that "extended length of time" was just a few minutes, according to OP. Can you really not envisage a situation where someone cannot immediately find what they are changing into, or gets distracted by something or someone? If it was as crowded as OP says, he can't really have been showing off because he would be well aware most people couldn't see him.

And what OP thinks he felt is really irrelevant. She has no means of knowing, particularly as on her own admission she was busy getting her own stuff and leaving.

Why is topless men perfectly acceptable behaviour? When did that happen?

I’m a woman and I don’t feel anxious about topless men (bit grim if they’re wearing budgie smugglers), but I’m not concerned about a man seeing my middle aged body in a bikini. I might put in a cover-up to walk about in though round a pool.

What a shitty thing to say to the OP, Horserider5678, especially given it was AFTER she'd actually commented to say that she has indeed suffered abuse in her past. Hope you feel proud of yourself?

If you could try putting yourself into someone else's shoes for a few minutes ... THIS is why we need to preserve a few social niceties or considerations. If we want to live in a pleasant civil society that means behaving in a way that tries to be considerate. It would be impossible to go about your daily life without upsetting SOMEONE obviously, but I think it's an entirely reasonable 'adjustment' not to strip off for no reason in front of other people in an inappropriate context (eg when you're not on the beach/pool/park/unisex changing area).

Living in a community means just that - it isn't all about you and your personal comfort. So people who listen to stuff on their phones at full blast on a train without earphones are being selfish. Dog-owners who allow their pets to bother other people and can't be arsed to train them are selfish. People who allow their kids to go into their back gardens at 6.30 am and scream are selfish. Men who strip off in front of everyone else in an inappropriate context are being boundary-pushing arseholes.

Two things can be true in the same time.

For me it is ok to quickly change one's top in that settings and I would do it as well (I'm chosing my bras to feel clothed enough in them) if I needed to.

It sounds he considers himself a gift to women and is overdoing everything - making you feel uneasy about him. Hugging younger women, getting distracted from putting the top on, small ways to show that he is there.

Observe him and potentially have a word about his overall behaviour. If you phrase the issue as removing his top, it won't be understood.

You are not the dress police. It is not to your and your daughter's taste so don't dress like that and leave other people alone. Fashions change.