The reactions to the Bondi Beach terrorist attack has shown how racist many posters are here.

[TheTamerShrew]

I’m posting because I’m struggling with how racism against Jews is being talked about here following the recent terrorist attack in Australia. What I’ve seen, again and again, is minimisation: it wasn’t really about Jews, it was more complicated than that, let’s not jump to conclusions, other groups have it worse. All the familiar caveats come out remarkably quickly when the victims are Jewish.

I want to say clearly: racism against Jews is racism. Full stop. It doesn’t become less serious because it’s uncomfortable, politically inconvenient, or doesn’t fit neatly into how some people understand racism. And it doesn’t need to compete with other forms of racism to be real or worthy of being named.

What I find particularly painful is how often antisemitism is explained away rather than confronted. We would rightly challenge this pattern if it happened after an attack on almost any other minority group. Yet when Jews are targeted, there seems to be an urge to dilute, reframe, or downplay what’s happened.
I’d really ask people to pause and self-reflect on why that might be.

Why does naming antisemitism feel harder?
Why is there a rush to qualify it, contextualise it out of existence, or deny it altogether?
Why is Jewish fear so often treated as oversensitivity rather than a rational response to a long and very real history?

Acknowledging racism is not an accusation against everyone else. It’s the first, necessary step in confronting it. If we can’t even name antisemitism when it’s staring us in the face, we have no chance of challenging it, let alone preventing it.

We don’t make the world safer by minimising hatred. We make it safer by recognising it honestly, even when that recognition makes us uncomfortable.

I hope this can be read in the spirit it’s intended: not to shut down discussion, but to ask people to explore and self reflect.

See the attached photo: in order to become Anti-racist, one needs to first acknowledge racism

Well yes, I know they are radical Islamist terrorists. I said upthread that the destruction of Jews is in an Isis “manifesto.” But that doesn’t help me make sense of what came over them (and all the other radical Islamist attacks) because I still cannot imagine how they could do what they did. It still seems senseless to me, because the whole ideology of radical Islam is senseless to me. Each time it happens, I marvel anew at how and why anyone could do such a thing.

you're right. I used italics, but I thought it would be completely blatantly obvious.

I'm extremely disturbed that we have got to the point that this could be read as real 😨

I'm sorry everyone 🙏 - assuming mumsnet will delete my comment.

I’m sure the shooting at my grandmother’s care home in 2004 and the mass shooting at ny father’s synagogue in 2016 was somehow also our fault. Honestly.

I have personally participated in two charity fundraising concerts for Sudan; I think you underestimate the people who conduct activism for international issues.

Even the Palestine marches, I contend the majority are people who have just been horrified by what they have seen on their screens - and unless you're going to suggest that it is all fake news, that there is no starvation in Gaza, that refugee camps and hospitals have not been bombed, that unarmed people including children have not been shot by soldiers, that 5 year old Hind Rajab was not killed in her family car over hours by an IDF tank - it is horrific. People who want the killing to stop, all of it. People who can't control or impact Hamas, but hope they might be able by their actions to influence the government of a supposedly Westernised liberal state. Maybe they are not the best informed, and maybe they chant things without understanding the potential implications (I can imagine most couldn't pick out Israel or Gaza on a map, so might not have a clue that 'from the river to the sea' implies a one-state solution). Again I am not excusing the ignorance, but I do NOT think most people in the crowds are motivated by anti-semitism. They will be the same people you will see counter-protesting Tommy Robinson, the EDL, and other fascist groups who are openly or tacitly anti-semitic.

The media covers Gaza far more extensively than other conflicts, partly because of the history (this is an extremely long-standing conflict, it did not all being on 7/10/23), partly because there is a wealth of mobile phone footage from the ground unlike say Sudan and North Korea or Afghanistan, and partly because of the sheer numbers of the dead, both in real terms and in terms of the proportion of the population. Similarly to the Holocaust - the Nazis were antisemitic, but they didn't just hate and murder Jews - they also rounded up and slaughtered the disabled, homosexuals, Roma, Communists. But their decimation of the European Jewish population was so huge, both in raw numbers and as a percentage of the population, was so systematic and so catastrophic that THAT is the group that is remembered first and foremost. History, and politics, is in part a numbers game. In terms of why this issue provokes more organised protests, I do think that Gaza feels like it ought to be more tractable to activism because of what Israel is (or purports to be) - not an isolationist dictatorship like Afghanistan or N. Korea, but a westernised liberal democracy, part of the global community. Who would one be protesting to, re Sudan or the Taliban? No-one is listening. But there is the feeling Israel might (although that feeling is diminishing as the years go on).

I understand your point about focussing closer to home. But I feel like if the world turns its back on Gaza now those people will just be killed or expatriated. I feel like that is the intent of Israel now after decades of walking the line of global opinion - 7/10 pushed the dial domestically enough that they have decided to see this through once and for all and make Gaza and the West Bank Israel, and they feel the only way they will be safe is if that includes few to no Palestinians. I don't want my children reading the history books in ten years time about the eradication of the Palestinian people and wondering how the world allowed it to happen. Any more than if I had been alive in the 1930s and 40s and knew what was happening to the Jews in Germany I would have been able to ignore it and just be glad it wasn't happening here. I would have felt like I had to do something. I do feel like I have to do something. But what is there that anyone can do? I can see why some people want to be part of a big protest, as it makes you feel your voice might be heard. But it also opens the door for your voice to be co-opted.

I have not yet found a solution to this problem; certainly I am not comfortable with the aggression and machismo of the Free Palestine movement as demonstrated at marches, or in the music scene of which I am a part in my home town. But I also can't bring myself to shrug and say not my business when women are delivering their babies in filthy tents without pain relief, when babies are dying in hospital due to a lack of electricity and medicine, when children are being shot down in the street by snipers, when whole families are being obliterated by bombing in civilian areas.

It was obvious to me but then I have seen you post on other threads so understand your stance.

Probably would normally be obvious to everyone but obviously this thread is fast moving and emotive so ...

She’s being sarcastic, don’t worry

It is, I know that, and I never said it wasn't. Of course this was anti-semitic terrorism. Who is denying that?

I think this is what makes this new (to us!) form of fascism so dangerous: it is so crazy that it's much easier for us to get our heads round the excuses they give to distract us from their real intentions. They began this on 7 October by organising rallies in the UK for the following weekend, which were attended by tens of thousands, and have manipulated social media ever since. Anyone doubting this had only to see the "Conflict in the Middle East" forum in the immediate aftermath of 7/10 and for at least a year after - an absolute avalanche of malicious disinformation. Most of the threads have now been deleted retrospectively, perhaps MN got wise to these tactics or were pulled up on it? Anyway, the damage is done: the streets and open spaces of the UK (and clearly other countries, such as Australia) are no longer safe for our peaceful Jewish population. Meanwhile, people continue to deny that this is a problem.

I've reported it and asked Mumsnet to remove it. I am going to respond to that post again, because what they says needs calling out, but I'll make myself clearer this time 😖

Just ‘contextualising’ as I’m sure you contextualise every other form of racism.

Unsure why you’d protest against Tommy Robinson or the EDL rather than just offer an explanation of their position. But there we are.

I understood what you were saying. The real problem is that you did such a good job of reflecting the subtext of much of this thread!

There is a whole generation born post 9/11 who don't have a clue about it. If they appreciated what radical Islam is then our universities wouldn't be filled with students supporting Hamas.

I did wonder when I read it because it seemed so far off from your usual posts, hence my response!

Or maybe they would, because they think they look hot in a keffiyeh 🤷🏻‍♀️ I don't really trust them to exercise critical appraisal skills in a Tik-Tok fashion world.

What would be more useful in the situation with the lion - understanding his actual motivation to attack or trying to explain his behaviour with some made up theory?
What do you think is more likely to be the actual motivation of two shooters attacking Jews on a beach in Australia - genuine concern for people in a completely unrelated conflict on the other side of the world and desperation for their plight or just plain old hatred of Jews?

Describing them as "mad men" is too simplistic as well as being untrue.

They decided to massacre Jews on Bondi Beach quite simply because they have been indoctrinated by their Muslim faith to hate Jews. And they are supported in this action by the Western useful idiots chanting "Globalise the Intifada ".

A 2020 report by the <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=henryjacksonsociety.org/publications/britishmuslimantisemitism/&ved=2ahUKEwii_omr8MGRAxUnREEAHS5FGicQy_kOegQIAxAC&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw0iRDsHo2x_8tJge3sxXeqw&ust=1765966589059000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Henry Jackson Society, based on a late 2019 poll, found significant agreement among British Muslims with several anti-Semitic tropes:

44% believed British Jewish people were more loyal to Israel than to the UK. This compares to 24% of the general population in a separate poll.
34% believed Jews have too much control over the global banking system.
33% believed Jews have too much control over global political leadership.

More recently
46% of British Muslims expressed sympathy for Hamas in the Israel-Palestine conflict. The same poll reported that only one in four British Muslims believed Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7, 2023.

Bullshit.

"However do not kid yourself into thinking that the reason Jewish people feel unsafe is not a direct consequence of the genocide the Israeli government is carrying out on Gaza. " - Historically antisemites always believed their 'reason' of the day was the reason Jews were 'actually really this time to blame' for people hating them. And somehow in every generation they are the ones kidding themselves that they can accept that in the past antisemitism was clearly irrational, but this time, the Jews have actually brought it on themselves, and it really is justifiable.

Bullshit.

Israel are not to blame for the murder of the Jews in Bondi beach, antisemites are. Jews are unsafe because antisemites have found another (in their eyes) valid way to hate us and attack us. But I promise you, if Israel and Gaza did not exist, they'd find another excuse. History has made that abundantly clear.

ETA I am not implying any such thing about any “genocide,” and I’m beginning to resent some posters’ insistence on seeing anti-Semitism where there is none. I simply wonder about how any human being can do such things to other human beings. I thought I explained that very clearly.

What is truly shocking is that given the unacceptable subtext of many of the posts here is that what should have been an obviously sarcastic post was taken as a genuine.

Yes, that's what I mean!

I’ve definitely seen plenty of women too.
One prominent example that comes to mind is that suspended NHS doctor Rahmeh Aladwan.
Also seen plenty of footage of women ripping down hostage posters.

Ugh, those stats are truly grim.

Is the indoctrination from regular Islam or from radical Islam? I thought the two shouldn’t be conflated, but admittedly I haven’t read the Koran so I’m not sure what, if anything, it says about Jews. I do know that an Isis “manifesto” declares war on the Jewish people.

I think that if people can be indoctrinated into such senseless hate, it’s a sign that they’re not right in the head. I do think they are insane to be susceptible to such ideas.

No I don’t think madmen is useful. They’re radicalised, indoctrinated and trained.

Re the lion analogy... I think in this context, it's a bit like struggling to understand the lion's motives when it pounces on a buffalo and tears it to shreds. Is it because the buffalo is a big bully? No, it's because the lion wants to eat it.

To be fair part of the problem we have with the rise of the far right in Britain is an unwillingness to discuss the concerns of its adherents. The overriding one being the plummeting quality of life for most people since 2008. Racism has always been with us; but during the prosperous 90s and early 00s, it had been marginalised significantly, due to the fact that people's quality of life was improving - it's hard to blame minorities for what's wrong with your life when you are overall happy with your lot.

But assume you are white working class, your industry has disappeared, your benefits have been cut, you are struggling to find housing or get dental care, the government says over and over the reason for this is because there is 'not enough money'... and then you hear that x number of people are entering the country and 'competing' with you for all this stuff that used to be easy to come by (work, housing, heathcare)... our innate tribalism is bound to emerge, and it pleases the government of the day to encourage this rather than address the point that there isn't 'not enough money', there is plenty, it's just it has been relentlessly concentrated to the top tier for decades.

So as with Palestine marches, for absolutely SURE there will be some hardcore racists and thugs who have been waiting for this opportunity to let their true colours show; for a good number of others, they will just be horrified by what they are seeing in the media and feeling like they have to do something, without necessarily having a firm grasp of the issues.

The purpose of counterprotesting isn't so much to change that, as it is not really the right forum; it is to show those feeling intimidated by those protests that it is not the only game in town, that not everyone blames them for what's happening.