DD (21) plans to get married and move abroad

[Thatonesong]

My DD is 21, she's a lovely, sociable, smart girl. She studied sports science and is now doing her MSc in Sports and Exercise Medicine. She entered into a new relationship in January, the man is 28 which to me feels like a notable age gap at 20/21, but I appreciate others may feel differently. He is from the Middle East and has made it clear he plans to move home. He proposed to DD at the start of the month, which felt quite fast since they'd been together for maybe 10/11 months at the time, but we congratulated her, she seems happy and airing our opinion is only likely to cause upset.
Tonight DD came over for dinner, without her partner. She told us she is planning to get married in the summer and then move to his home country with him in the autumn after she graduates. I asked if she has a plan for once she is there career wise and she said maybe some sports coaching but he can afford to support them both. This felt like a red flag to me as I don't want her to be fully reliant on anyone else to just survive. She was also honest and said having children is high on her priority list and she "doesn't want to wait until she's older and too tired to be an active mum". I felt a bit gobsmacked tbh, but just said she should spend some time thinking about if this all what she really wants or if she is doing it because it is what he wants/feels pressured.
Since she left I haven't been able to stop crying, my partner thinks we need to have a harsher word with her, note the risks more plainly, such as difficult getting a divorce, likely not possible to have children there, break up and move back here with them (due to The Hague Convention) etc.
I know she is an adult and entitled to make her own choices, but 21 still feels very young!
AIBU to be so concerned? What do I do?

When the world cup was held in Qatar there was so much outrage and so much publicity about the Human rights issues there and the way women are treated in society you and your dd must be aware to some extent what type of country she is proposing to make her life in?

Is he love bombing her? If so, it might help to point that out to get too as it's a common manipulative tactic

The trouble with that is that even e.g. going out for a long visit, there are risks associated - because sex outside marriage is illegal for one.

I think you have a very careful balancing act to manage here. You need to make sure she understands the risks and consequences of what she may be doing (a baby born less than 9 months after a wedding can be denied a birth certificate, the concept of exit visas etc) but also make sure you don't do so in such a way that your relationship breaks down, because if her relationship breaks down you need her to be able to come back to you.

You've had some great advice and I feel for you. I have spent some time in ME and Arab countries and have many friends from there. An additional suggestion would be to speak to him. It would be entirely expected for your blessing to be needed for the marriage. As it would be for you to want to meet his parents and family. They will likely have their own reservations. I would arrange to get out there. See how his sisters live their lives, his brothers wives live. What the family consider haram. Has there been "intermarraige" before. You will likely be greeted with great hospitality but dig below it. I say this aa someone who has a lot of fondness for many aspects of Arab culture. If she finds this intrusive then she'd better get used to it, as families are generally very intertwined, and parents do have a say in big decisions like these.

I think focus on the country rather than the man - as she probably won't want to hear a word said against him.
No matter how lovely he is, the chance of a relationship she starts in early 20s breaking down is very high. And she won't be able to move on from it the way she could in the UK.

it used to be the case that Qataris could only marry other GCC nationals or they had to get permission from the government ( this may have changed but I can’t find a reference to it).Is he confident he would be able to get this? Even if he is, this kind of flags up a point that it’s v unusual - what have his parents said? Even though he’s older than her he’s still quite young himself and I think there’s a risk that he’s entering into this in good faith but the realities of being back in his home culture will make it much more difficult than either of them realise.

She is an adult but you are within your rights to talk more and make sure she has thought it though. The fact she came on her own to tell you means that she is aware enough to know you may have had reservations. Now you have done your homework have another chat with her and check she has done hers. Be supportive. Tell her you want it to work but go into this with her eyes open. Ask her what the plan is if she needs to leave? What if she has kids? Would he stop her? Is she going to have an escape fund? Do you have a way she can contact you without him knowing if necessary etc. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Then maybe speak frankly to him. Highlight the culture difference. Explain she can't be expected to give up a career and that he needs to promise to protect her freedom above all else. His reaction should let you know if there are red flags. If she knows what they are she can look for them. Same as any relationship.

My perspective as the parent of a 21 year old, and also someone who married with a year of meeting my first husband, is that she’s plain too young and this is too soon. I like the idea of you going over to visit his family.

Tbh if she goes ahead I would be doing my best to put aside a running away fund for her. And I’d tell her that.

I lived in Qatar for several years. It is not prejudice at all to highlight that it is extremely different culturally to the UK. It’s simply a basic fact.

What a scary situation! I wonder if he is the one pressuring for marriage and kids? And sad that she will have to convert - change all her clothes, lifestyle and no longer celebrate Christmas. I think she’s enjoying the attention and money but when she’s living there so far away from home it could be very lonely. And if she has children she will be stuck there.

Other things to ask her to consider. Would she accept a daughter to only be allowed to marry a Muslim man? Would she be happy with a son being circumcised?

These are things that I stupidly didn't consider to think of at 21. When my ds was born, I point blank refused to circumcise him which was a major cause of the marriage breaking down.

dubai, Qatar… the UAE in general is extremely safe for women. The laws, rules and regulations are firm but fair, so long as she abides by them there will be no issues
This sent a shiver down my spine, shades of Aunt Lydia and her freedom from/ freedom to.
Op I would be very concerned too, some great advice here about keeping communication open, meeting his family etc.

This is important advice. OP, it also shows good support of your DD in a way that accepts her decision.

Her fiancé and his parents should also be meeting with you - ask them for promises to send her and the kids for visits twice a year. Set it up so you stay very involved

What do you know about him and his family?

Get her to read / watch Not Without My Daughter. Does she understand that if their relationship breaks down she will have no rights over the custody of her children?

This is an excellent idea

Your DD is stepping into a minefield. It’s important that she is fully informed of how this could go terribly wrong, especially if she has a child with this man.
One thing to also consider - is he just attempting to get her to marry him so he can obtain leave to remain in the UK?
Remind her that in Qatar, a Muslim man can have 4 wives!
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/family-law-in-qatar/family-law-in-qatar

Hi OP,

It’s very important that you know more about this guy as well. For example, whether he is Qatari citizen or just Qatari resident as less than 15% of the population are actually citizens. If he indeed is the citizen then he is likely to be from a wealthy background and/or entitled to very generous level of government help. However, that also means, he is likely to have a very normal view of polygamy.

On the other hand, if he is just a resident and has some sort of visa status through his job then that’s an unstable position to be in. If he gets fired, he is out of the country back to where he originally comes from and your daughter would have to follow him to that country then which could be a developing one such as India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philippines etc.

Life in Qatar, especially if you are rich, is extremely comfortable. I have smoked hookah there, have had dinners there in the souq in Doha at 2am with other female friends and felt way safer than London and Paris.

In the case of a divorce, if you are a woman, you don’t have much rights unless you can file for divorce in London which is something a lot of Arab women do. It costs a fortune but the London courts are very generous to women (google search “why is London the divorce capital of the world”).

You should visit Doha with your daughter, just over 6 hour flight from London in ultra comfortable Qatar Airways. Make sure you make an effort to meet his family otherwise your daughter runs the risk of becoming a second or third wife….

I’ve only visited once and it was 5 years ago, but a tour guide told us that Qatar citizens married to other Qatar citizens did not have to pay taxes / had more rights and benefits than if they married “outsiders “. If that’s still the case, I’m wondering why this man would choose to marry an outsider, when his life would be easier / more comfortable if he married a Qatari?

I wouldn’t even say my friend’s life is that unusual. She has had the most awful bruising on her face and mo one looked twice. He became cruel and controlling very quickly once she was pregnant. The worst element for her was the way her mother in law treated her strangely enough. She is looked down upon, and expected to serve his entire family.

When I think of the bright eyed, deeply intelligent carefree woman she once was, and when I see how she is now it breaks my heart .

She would never leave her daughters there though, so she has to keep going. Now they speak to her poorly too, both are teenagers and hardened to life there, not knowing anything else.

She dreams of home but her parents have died, and he took their inheritance and invested it poorly into a failing business. She doesn’t have a ‘family home’ to return to now. Nor will she be entitled to much help or support as she hasn’t been back in the U.K. for almost thirty years now. It is an on going nightmare, with no way to escape.

I would be devastated if my own DDs were in this position.

I married a man from another country and we went to live there.

My marriage was and is a success but I couldn’t have left with my children if he had not let me. And I knew many other British women who had children and their marriages had broken due who were stuck there for life. Even when the children become eighteen they don’t want to leave their home and go and live in another country.

What I think is possibly happening here is that you are scared of sounding like a racist if you tell her that you think she’s being foolish to move to another country at twenty one. It’s an easy retort for somebody to bandy around.

I think that British people, like Americans can be incredibly naive about going to live in other people’s countries. They don’t realise that being white and being British doesn’t carry any weight and that you can’t just say that you aren’t doing this or that because that’s not what you would do in the UK.

She would crazy to move to somewhere that western women are seen as shit on a shoe.

Based on reality though

This is a tricky one, as she’s in luuurrrve.

Personally, I would see what rights an engaged woman has in Qatar—is engagement on par with marriage, ie, is a woman her fiancé’s property? If NOT, I would advise her to live there for a year before getting married or having babies. See how she copes with always needing a man to escort her around town, always being covered over her knees and shoulders/chest, etc etc.

I would be making it VERY clear that she is signing away all of her human rights as a female to live there. Once the limerence of her new relationship wears off, she won’t be allowed to have the arguments with her DH that I have with mine—she will have to accept his decisions and choices as gospel, without any pushback. She needs to understand the gravity of this.

It’s like walking into Gilead—once you’re in, good luck trying to get out.

I’d also inform myself about family roles with in-laws and what is expected. I assume that there’s frequent gatherings.

As a daughter-in-law she will presumably be expected to fulfil a specific role in the family? Women cooking together (or if they have ‘servants’ spend time with the females of the family) whilst men are all being served food i. another room first.

Happy to stand corrected

By joining the HCCH they will be able to legally force the return of any children to Qatar.