To do a present-free Christmas for my daughter?

[JoannaTheYodelingCowgirl]

My youngest child, D7 (Id say DD but the way im feeling right now theres nothing dear about her), she has given me nothing but hell the past couple of years.

She had fallen in with a bad crowd of lads and been excluded from school several times for fighting, swearing, refusing to follow instructions, vandalising another childs property... Ive come down like a ton of bricks with her but D just doesnt see the serious side of it at all

After talks with the school in the summer it was obvious that D shouldnt be returning in september, now shes receiving alternative provision that involves tutoring at home while on the camhs waiting list

Shes no longer seeing those nasty old friends, and i thought things would finally calm down but if anything they got worse. Shes been so angry and spiteful, hitting me, attacking her older sisters, refusing to do her work. She had a tantrum yesterday that resulted in her grabbing hold of some of my christmas ornaments from the hearth throwing them and breaking them. I absolutely lost it with her, but its like screaming at a brick. No remorse, nothing. D has been given consequence after consequence but nothing seems to be working she just doesnt care, and ive just about had enough.

So once the kids were in bed i was in tears with DH i just didnt know what to do with her anymore. but he suggested she needed a shock to the system, so we agreed shes not going to get anything for christmas this year.

Mums coming over this weekend with presents but i rang her and explained the situation on the phone and i asked her to keep hold of D's presents for being naughty. But mum told me i was being unfair, and that it would not stop her misbehaving but only make things worse.

Ive spent an absolute fortune on D7 alone (nerf gun, football boots, lego cars and star wars) but it makes me feel sick the thought of giving her these things when shes been completely diabolical, she has no respect for my things why should i treat her to things she wants on christmas morning. Ive kept the receipts for everything of course so its not too late to take them back to the shops. My mum bless her is a softie with the kids but her voice is echoing over and over that it'll only make things worse but i just don't know what to do.

WIBU to give my daughter no christmas presents as a wakeup call?

No, of course you can't do this to your 7-year-old child. It would be spiteful and cruel. And she will never forget it. How could you even contemplate such an idea?

You can't even bring yourself to refer to your child as DD. It's a small thing, but it speaks volumes.

Whenever someone says that a child has been "difficult" all her life, I have to wonder what else is going on. Does she have additional needs? What about attachment issues? Do you feel as though you bonded with her as an infant?

As you've discovered, you can't punish certain behaviour out of a child. I would recommend looking into PACE or BCLC or another therapeutic parenting approach.

My friend's dad did this one Christmas, i remember his description of that Christmas and it was heartbreaking , he was not a bad kid.
7 years old -unforgivably cruel if you do it.

Not parent shaming. Threatening to take xmas presents away from her kid is not ‘doing her best’

You don’t want to put a label on her? All you’re doing is labelling her.

Not giving her any presents will give her some more labels for herself. “Bad” “worthless” “not even my mum loves me”.

Do you really, really, think that not giving her any Christmas presents while her siblings get them will do anything other than make her behaviour ten times worse?

she’s not a teenager. She’s seven. I thought sexual abuse peer on peer too.

She’s 7, how in the world has she fallen in with a bad crowd of lads, and swearing and being expelled? How has this been allowed to happen at her school and by her parents? Something is seriously wrong here, this is so far from normal.

I’m going to have a stab in the dark here.

I’m going to guess that:

• She doesn’t hear nice things said to her or about her, by anyone. Not by you, her siblings or her teachers (except perhaps the ‘bad crowd’ showed her that they like her, so she behaved in a way that pleased them).

• She is shouted at a lot, punished a lot and shamed a lot for the bad things that she has done.

• She now doesn’t believe that she is a nice person.

• She is a sad, angry little girl who believes that she is a bad person who nobody likes. Punishments don’t make a difference to children who feel they have nothing important left to lose.

• She is caught in a vicious cycle of feeling bad and behaving badly.

• Very possibly she has experienced early life trauma (even as a baby or before birth) which is what set this behaviour in motion to begin with. Or, she might be neurodivergent or have a mental health condition.

If any of that rings true, then withholding Christmas presents isn’t going to make the situation any better.

You need to find a way to let her know that even though her behaviour is bad, she deep down is a good person who you love, believe in, and enjoy being around. She needs to know that, all children do.

Read ‘The Whole Brain Child’ and look for a good parenting course would be my advice.

Referral for a neurodivergent diagnosis is completely different. Please get her referred. Go to GP or through school.

You need to absolute shower her with love and one on one time.
a 5 year old can’t fall in with a bad crowd.

you’ll damage her forever if she has nothing for Christmas whilst her older siblings sit round enjoying their Christmas. Your mum is of course right.

this comment 🤣 but I agree x

Agree with a previous poster - her behaviour is communication. There’s more to this than meets the eye. I don’t honestly believe 7 year olds go off the rails like this unless there’s something else going on. Is there undiagnosed SEND issues? Has she witnessed DV? Is she being bullied? Your child is struggling with something.

Personally, I wouldn’t withhold presents. It could send a message that you love siblings more than her. And could she her withdraw from you more at a time when you need her to trust you.

Not giving Christmas gifts is really just an extension of punishments you've given before that haven't worked, which to me indicates that this goes beyond behaviour or influences from other children.

CAHMS will take forever. In the meantime please start researching and exploring alternative causes for her actions, particularly as it appears that there have been signs of her struggling from a young age.

Please research ADHD, Autism (with a PDA profile - pathological demand avoidance) and ODD as a starting point. Please make extra effort to look into how this might display in girls specifically, and make the effort to do so with an open mind that if you see her represented in one or more of these diagnoses then you will continue to research like your life depends on it, and explore how to meet the needs of children with these diagnoses. If you can pay for assessments privately, please do it. Go to every parenting course, listen to every podcast, read every book, speak to parents of children with additional needs.

It can and will get better, but not through punishment. She needs care and understanding and patience and parents that are willing to open their mind to their child not being who they expected them to be. This is SO HARD, I know.

She's 7. Children aren't born 'bad'. 7 year olds that are 'bad influences' have clearly not been given the best start in life and that is not their fault. They are children.

Please give her Christmas gifts. I'm sorry to say but withholding them for actions she cannot control will do nothing but cause long-lasting damage. Sending you kindness and strength through it all.

Oh my goodness, your poor child

Look for this book - incredible years. you can get it online, library or as audio book.

Google 'incredible years programme near me' - if you live near in a deprived area there usually someone running the course.

Iv found it the most helpful parenting course by far and iv done my fair share having ND kids.

She's living in sadness and anger and fear and you're trying to discipline it out of her?! Bad move. she needs a nice group of friends, love and patience.

This can’t be true. Absolutely no way.

She's 7 and "fallen in with a bad crowd"?

@Hankunamatata absolutely 2nd the Incredible Years programme! The best parenting course I’ve been on.

Also "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Thats what you're doing. You need to entirely re-think your parenting. Your punishment strategy is NOT working!

Start doing research on oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) and pathological demand avoidance (pda)

How incredibly cruel .. no presents for a little girl of just 7 that's just wicked. Your dd clearly needs help and understanding

Do what @unsuregiraffe has said, do it now. Go to GP and get referral for ADHD and Autism, arrange the appointment tomorrow. Read everything you can find about these and PDA. Please.
She may be acting up and have got some bad habits but by god she's 7 years old, only 7. She's crying out for help. You must help her. To be honest CAHMS won't, I'm sorry. Love her, cherish her and tell her every single second she does something you like, something good, something brave (remember if she's neurodivergent pretty much everything can be terrifying, uncomfortable or otherwise crap), anything that isn't "bad" praise. Please show her you love her and you are there for her.

It really is. I wax lyrical on here all the time about it but it was the most impactful course I went on. So good I did it twice! Once when my little ones were all under 5 then about 8 years later when my youngest was about 9 and I was loosing the will

You sound as bad as each other, except she’s 7 and you are an adult. Screaming at her and punishing her with literally nothing at Christmas is abusive. Her behaviour does not excuse yours

You can't punish neurodivergence out of a child. She's extremely young, and you're talking about her like she's a wayward teenager. Your parenting is not meeting her needs. Suggest you take her to the GP and request a right to choose referral for assessment (don't wait for CAMHS) and self refer to early help for support.