To do a present-free Christmas for my daughter?

[JoannaTheYodelingCowgirl]

My youngest child, D7 (Id say DD but the way im feeling right now theres nothing dear about her), she has given me nothing but hell the past couple of years.

She had fallen in with a bad crowd of lads and been excluded from school several times for fighting, swearing, refusing to follow instructions, vandalising another childs property... Ive come down like a ton of bricks with her but D just doesnt see the serious side of it at all

After talks with the school in the summer it was obvious that D shouldnt be returning in september, now shes receiving alternative provision that involves tutoring at home while on the camhs waiting list

Shes no longer seeing those nasty old friends, and i thought things would finally calm down but if anything they got worse. Shes been so angry and spiteful, hitting me, attacking her older sisters, refusing to do her work. She had a tantrum yesterday that resulted in her grabbing hold of some of my christmas ornaments from the hearth throwing them and breaking them. I absolutely lost it with her, but its like screaming at a brick. No remorse, nothing. D has been given consequence after consequence but nothing seems to be working she just doesnt care, and ive just about had enough.

So once the kids were in bed i was in tears with DH i just didnt know what to do with her anymore. but he suggested she needed a shock to the system, so we agreed shes not going to get anything for christmas this year.

Mums coming over this weekend with presents but i rang her and explained the situation on the phone and i asked her to keep hold of D's presents for being naughty. But mum told me i was being unfair, and that it would not stop her misbehaving but only make things worse.

Ive spent an absolute fortune on D7 alone (nerf gun, football boots, lego cars and star wars) but it makes me feel sick the thought of giving her these things when shes been completely diabolical, she has no respect for my things why should i treat her to things she wants on christmas morning. Ive kept the receipts for everything of course so its not too late to take them back to the shops. My mum bless her is a softie with the kids but her voice is echoing over and over that it'll only make things worse but i just don't know what to do.

WIBU to give my daughter no christmas presents as a wakeup call?

Gosh, this is all so concerning. My DS is 7 and he’s an absolute delight. He has his moments sure but never anything remotely unmanageable. Your DD’s behaviour is just so extreme for her age, it’s the sort of thing you’d imagine happening with an abused child navigating through trauma. Glad she’s on the CAMHS waiting list but if you can afford it, I’d be looking into private therapy. Something is seriously wrong here.

What on earth is she doing out unsupervised? Surely 7-year-olds get dropped off at the school and collected, there shouldn't be any opportunity for this behaviour you describe.

My mind is boggling, I must admit, and I have been a parent of boys for 40 years. Lol

The issue here is the difficulty you're having binding with your young child. That's what you need to address. You need more 1:1 time, more attempts to enjoy each other's company, not harsh punishments.

You speak like everything that has happened is on her, but she's a very young child. Her behaviour is unlikely to get better if she doesn't feel secure and safe in her relationship with her parents.

Sorry, this situation sounds horrible for you. Can you move the CAMHS appointment forward at all. Just call them regularly as squeaky wheels get the oil and you really sound at your wits end.
I wouldn't refuse her Christmas presents as this would probably just give you a whole day of rage and she could even break your other children's presents. Instead, maybe aim for presents that will engage her at home quietly. She may be a bit better over the holidays without the influence and stress of school. If there is something going on with her mental health they may prescribe some medication that will help her with self control and if not at least give you a behaviour management plan.
Try to stay calm around her and if you feel like yelling actually talk quietly. This used to work with one of my ADD boys. Took a few goes though.
Good luck.

Your dd needs love and empathy not harsh punishments which will make her more unhappy and angry 🤷‍♀️

She's not currently in school, so the holidays won't have a huge impact.

He was when we started primary school. I wasn't quite 5 when I started school - there was an intake every 6 months in those days and I'd been allowed to start early via an administrative error on the part of the school. We were supposed to be fully 5 years old, but the error meant that I was the youngest in the class. We stayed in reception for 6 months to learn the rudiments of reading, writing and numeracy with the indomitable primary school depute and then moved on to the teacher who took us for the next two years.

At that time, we didn't start high school until we were 12 years old. It's different now - the normal starting age for primary is 4 and 11 for secondary.

We weren't 'wandering the streets'. We were right at our back doors. Dad had bought a downstairs flat. Each downstairs back door and each external staircase for the upper flats led to a communal area at the back, then garden sheds and wooden garages plus our gardens to the rear of those. (In our case, an enclosed garden with a lock. The other gardens were open.)

I do still see children playing in their own street these days.

In the case of the OP, the 'rough boys' are presumably boys who attend her daughter's primary school, so until being removed from the school she would have been seeing them 5 days a week. No, there won't be any 13 yr old boys at that school, but I'm assuming that there will be boys right up to the age of 11 there.

ETA Where have I said that 7 is too old for Santa?

I hope that I'm not speaking about a 7 yr old in a. 'weird way'. Given the one traumatic experience that I had, I'm concerned for the girl - based on what her mother has said about her friendship group.

I'll add that I'm also ND. (As might be the case with the OP's little girl.) The problem with being ND is that you sometimes come across as a being a bit more mature than you really are with regard to speech patterns and also you can be far too trusting - when people tell you something, you assume that they're as truthful as you are.

Have you looked for a girls football/rugby club for her? Speaking as a 'tomboy' woman i think it can be very helpful for girls to be among other girls who have similar interestes. It can be a bit isolating to be the only girl among your peers who are into typicaly 'boys' sports you never really fit in with the boys and you may find some of her behaviour is due to wanting to be accpeted by them. If she could be among other sporty girls she may not feel so 'different'

That would be a very bad idea. Apart from all the other reasons that some pp have mentioned. children should NOT be taught to regard helping disadvantaged people and giving to charity as a punishment. In the long run, it teaches all the wrong lessons.

There are coding clubs for kids, suitable for aged 5+ in our area, including some minecraft content. Also have you tried Beavers?

The more I read this the sadder I become. This is clearly a very unhappy little girl.

I think you should focus on liking her - children know on when they aren’t liked and in my experience, they react either by perfectionism or by lashing out.

And 7 is not too old for Santa, although I appreciate your family doesn’t do it and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Please don’t take her presents away. You could even engage her in conversation after Christmas and affirm that even though you’ve been sad about some of her behaviour this year, she is so loved and you believe in her.

You are either going to spiral down together, or slowly build back up. You have to take the lead on that.

Can I also suggest putting her into an activity with a group of girls, ideally not all from her school class? I know you've said she wouldn't be keen, but something that isn't stereotypically girly, but shows her that there are other girls interested in things she likes, and that she can try new things and explore interests outside of the boundaries of having to fit in with a group of boys (especially the ones you think have had this negative influence over her) may be really good for her. Don't give her the choice, just go 'You'll enjoy XZY, we'll pick you up at the end and I want to hear all about it on the way home!'
I'd suggest Brownies, Girls Sport Team (other than football - maybe rugby, or basketball or hockey or netball). There's also girls brigade, girls friendly society.

Could also try her in Scouts (Beavers at her age) - a mixed environment, but usually would suit someone who's quite 'tomboy-ish' and would also introduce her to some new kids, and hopefully the leaders would be a good level of authority for her which she may respect in an environment that's not home or school.

What does she like to do at home? If it's basically mostly football, could you try to either get into football yourself - practice with her, get her to show you and teach you how to do things, or try a new hobby together (just the two of you), so she's got some positive 1:1 time doing something she enjoys? Try to make it doing something, not just watching tv together! (Your DH could also sub in here sometimes).

I am absolutely NOT doing this

If you see my updates, Ive decided against scrapping christmas presents, only the nerf gun is going back but thats more so because in hindsight its not a good idea for a currently violent girl.

And besides, we buy and donate a lot from charity shops and theres no way im using that as punishment

I think your original post was just made in a moment of huge frustration OP? Of course you’re not going to scrap her gifts but yeah maybe change the nerf gun for something else !! 😉

Sorry I’ve not read all the thread so this might have already been said but if I were you I’d do some research on ‘pda’ it’s pathological demand avoidance. It’s part of the autism spectrum and I had no idea it existed until I came across it in one of the autism forums I’m on for my children and it was like a lightbulb moment.
It explained so much of my child’s behaviours and I’m still learning but now I’ve started trying some of these ‘non demand’ strategies it’s amazing how something that before would have been a huge argument and tantrum is now a non issue just because I’ve presented it in a different way.
In my personal experience autistic children are also very gullible and easily led so I can see how being in the wrong crowd would lead to bad behaviour. My child went through a phase where they were stealing them self serve salads from Morrisons because her friends were all egging her on and she liked the praise and pleasing them. I know that’s not all autistic children and it’s a massive spectrum but that’s just my experience.

Anyway all we can do is trial and error and I know how stressful and draining it can be but at least it seems like you have a supportive DH so just keep talking and sharing so it doesn’t build up. Good luck x

Agree!

How about presents that use both energy and intelligence. Your daughter actually sounds like she has both. What about remote control cars. She could build tracks for them. Would keep her occupied.

Highly recommend rugby for spirited children. Boys & girls.

My girl does mixed rugby but also joins a girls only group mid week. It’s absolutely awesome. Very physical. But such a vibe. She loves that session. Very girl power.

she also does cubs, used to do beavers and wil go to scouts. Their pack is really good with all sorts of different kids. Diverse. Really recommend it.

you don’t say where you are but if you let us know we may be able to recommend some other avenues for engaging her.

lots of home Ed groups around here too who do fantastic meet ups and loads of support.