To do a present-free Christmas for my daughter?

[JoannaTheYodelingCowgirl]

My youngest child, D7 (Id say DD but the way im feeling right now theres nothing dear about her), she has given me nothing but hell the past couple of years.

She had fallen in with a bad crowd of lads and been excluded from school several times for fighting, swearing, refusing to follow instructions, vandalising another childs property... Ive come down like a ton of bricks with her but D just doesnt see the serious side of it at all

After talks with the school in the summer it was obvious that D shouldnt be returning in september, now shes receiving alternative provision that involves tutoring at home while on the camhs waiting list

Shes no longer seeing those nasty old friends, and i thought things would finally calm down but if anything they got worse. Shes been so angry and spiteful, hitting me, attacking her older sisters, refusing to do her work. She had a tantrum yesterday that resulted in her grabbing hold of some of my christmas ornaments from the hearth throwing them and breaking them. I absolutely lost it with her, but its like screaming at a brick. No remorse, nothing. D has been given consequence after consequence but nothing seems to be working she just doesnt care, and ive just about had enough.

So once the kids were in bed i was in tears with DH i just didnt know what to do with her anymore. but he suggested she needed a shock to the system, so we agreed shes not going to get anything for christmas this year.

Mums coming over this weekend with presents but i rang her and explained the situation on the phone and i asked her to keep hold of D's presents for being naughty. But mum told me i was being unfair, and that it would not stop her misbehaving but only make things worse.

Ive spent an absolute fortune on D7 alone (nerf gun, football boots, lego cars and star wars) but it makes me feel sick the thought of giving her these things when shes been completely diabolical, she has no respect for my things why should i treat her to things she wants on christmas morning. Ive kept the receipts for everything of course so its not too late to take them back to the shops. My mum bless her is a softie with the kids but her voice is echoing over and over that it'll only make things worse but i just don't know what to do.

WIBU to give my daughter no christmas presents as a wakeup call?

seven is about the age I figured out Santa was my parents. We certainly didn’t waste time on elf crap at school.

I presses wrong vote. I leant to say YABU. She’s only 7 !!! I agree with you mum sorry . Hope things get better asap

This

Re the anger, my DD is an adult now and was diagnosed autistic at 14. She talks about the anger, the absolute rage that would come from no where and take ages to go.

Yes it's hard to manage but discipline is often the complete opposite method to parent children like this.

Look up PDA autism and I think you'll see your DD.
You need boundaries but not discipline. It's counter intuitive but I promise it works.

You might as well try it because what you're doing isn't working that well so you have nothing to lose.

Understanding and complete honesty and consistency and respect works better than threats.

I don't think feeling sick at the thought of giving a 7 year old presents and planning to get refunds (to spend on the 'nicer' children?) so she can have her revenge in two weeks' time by creating a core memory of waking up on Christmas Day to nothing other than a satisfied looking adult whilst her siblings open their presents really counts as doing one's best.

It's just revenge. Exacting revenge upon a 7 year old for being neurodiverse.

Best presents for her: an assessment and some sessions with an OT while you wait for an ed psych to assess her, plus a very calm bedroom with some gentle sensory input

Present for you: a copy of The Explosive Child by Ross Greene and further reading on nurture and autism

My father was doing shift work down the coalmine. My mother was in the house. This was in the 1960s.

I was never far away from my mother's gaze...apart from two minutes and that was all it took for me to be led away. She used to check out the back windows to make sure that I was okay.

I suspect that she was unwell at the time. She was actually pregnant at the time, unbeknownst to me (and lost it, later that year).

You're not understanding this, are you? We all lived in the same block. Apart from when I was at primary school, I was never away from our back door or garden.

The boy who groomed me introduced me to his friend and informed me that he was going away on holiday. In the meantime, his friend - from a cottage adjacent to the next block up - would be the gang leader and I would be his deputy. I had to do everything he told me.

He took me for a walk, "exploring". Thank God, I wasn't raped. My dad got home from work to find my mother frantic with worry. (No phone in those days.) Some other children told him that they'd seen me being led away and he found me, after the abuser had dumped me...after his mother called him in for tea, believe it or not.

I wasn't away from home. My mother was very protective. I was only allowed to play at the back of our block or in our garden. It took 2 minutes, but the grooming had gone on much longer.

My parents trusted the neighbour's son. His grandmother was a neighbourhood stalwart. The son had helped when my dad laid a new concrete path to our back door. The grandmother used to give me a present of slippers every Christmas...

These were not strangers. If they had been, it wouldn't have happened.

I can’t believe a child of seven is behaving like this how has a child of seven fallen in with a bad group of lads, she should not be near lads at seven or allowed out alone, counselling and parenting classes together, child do not usually behave like this for nothing and she is too young to not have presents, there is more to this you need to get to the bottom of.

I agree - 7 is extremely young to stop believing in Santa

She is either year 2 or 3. My youngest is year 2 and 6, but lots of her friends are 7, all still believe in Santa.

My oldest started questioning it at 9 (year 4), but she is an old soul, most of her friends believed until year 5 at least. By year 6 they all pretty much knew he wasn't real.

Usually youngest end up being babied, your DD sounds like opposite, growing up before she is ready, and there is a mismatch between expectations and emotional maturity. She is floundering in the void between, not quite knowing where she is and quite literally pushing back to work out where the boundaries are.She needs a clear age appropriate framework to live within, clear expectations and calm feedback when moves outside these. Withholding Christmas presents isn't appropriate, maybe cutting them back a bit to help focus her might be useful though.

Too big for Santa at 7

that’s sad

she still so little

I don’t uunderstand how she got into such a bad crowd at age 5/6 If been going on for a few years

I think no presents is harsh but smaller ones or more things she’s needs and hopefully behaviour will improve and she can have the other stuff you got next year

I think you need to start the process of getting her assessed for autism or other developmental issues. She sounds a lot like my son. I get it, it's hard and I've been tempted to withhold gifts too. But I haven't because it feels too cruel. At some point they need a safe space. Recently my son was miserable at school and at home and it really made me pay attention to his mental health. Also, it's so hard when you're that frustrated, but try not to withhold affection or attention.

I’m interested in how you talk about your daughter - you speak about her as if she’s much older than 7

“she’s too big for Santa” (tell it to 9yo DS)
”fallen in with a bad crowd” (little kids aren’t in “bad crowds”)
“she doesn’t see the serious side of it at all” (well no, she’s 7. Abstract consequences don’t mean much to them).

7 is still very little, however clever or difficult a child is. I have a very verbally able 9 year old, who can talk to you like a 19 year old PPE undergrad - but he’s still a little boy.

It seems to me that her behaviour whilst precocious for her age, isn’t at all mature - so whilst the swearing, fighting and vandalism would incline you to “age up” the punishments / consequences / how you treat her- because they’re things we associate with much older children - the behaviour when break it down, both for your DD and older kids - is very very emotionally and cognitively “little”- and actually in essence more toddler like.

I think CAHMS is a great idea, but I would also really urge you to think about how you would handle a toddler who was acting up, and maybe try and skew your responses that way, as opposed to towards the teen end of things.

Absolutely awful idea

She’ll never forget this Christmas if you do that and it’s not going to be pretty for you. I’d never take my kids Christmas’s away from them it’s cruel

I say this as a parent of multiple SEN children with a big dollop of mental health issues added in. You are the problem, your Dd maybe not always doing the correct thing but you blame others and punish her.

Each child is very different and they need to be parented very differently. One of my DC.was suspended multiple times from school and was close to exclusion at more than one point. They could not cope in the environment due to neurodiversity. We worked with the school.and applied for an EHCP. A managed move was even suggested at one point. PRU units are not all the same and many of them are filled with children with mental health difficulties Or SEN that has not been diagnosed. The one thing all those kids have in common is being misunderstood. Find out what Pru Units are in your area and go visit some of them. Talk to the staff as they can be extremely helpful. You need to push you LA about getting.your DD into a school.

My child that was nearly excluded now attends specialist provision, it is not tradition "special school" but the difference the right environment makes is beyond belief. Don't judge anything by the cover sometimes the schools that are.deemed as failing cN be the best place for your child.

I honestly think you have let your DD down, you say she was a difficult baby ect you should have asked for help years ago. With my youngest I knew as a baby that they were struggling and I reached out for help from everyone who would listen. Babies and small children are not bad or naughty they are learning and trying to figure out the world around them. No amount of shouting or punishments will make any difference. They need love, clear boundaries and consequences that make sense to them. So if they throw toys around they get time to calm down and then they help tidy them up. Screaming and shouting just makes the entire sitworse.
Call CAHMS and talk to them about how difficult things are currently for your dd their maybe other sources of support you can access whilst waiting. In my local area for example we have a drop in mental health support service for young people that offers various support and can also help the CAHMS referral if they deem a child needs to be seen more quickly.

I do know someone who actually put coal in a naughty child’s Christmas stocking. I was kinda impressed at their resolve.

I think I would be giving ‘How to be nice’ books rather than nerf gun.

She’s 7. My daughter is 7. I can’t imagine ever not giving her Xmas presents….

It sounds like she really needs your live and support. Now she’s home, what are you doing to connect with her?

I put a potato in DS2’s stocking when he was about six. Along with all the usual goodies. He laughed like a drain as I knew he would, and ran around the house showing it to various family members - but he did also say he wondered what it might have been if he hadn’t done (unusually heinous act of naughtiness). MN called me an abuser 😂

PS: he knew immediately that it was Santa who had put the spud there, because we’d just read Mr Mean where the wizard turns all Mr Mean’s money into potatoes, and DS2 laughed so hard he wet himself

Poor child. Need help. You need help. Get therapy. Show her you love her.

That’s honestly one of the cruelest suggestions I’ve seen on mn in my 20 plus years of being a member. Nothing positive will result from that just make an unhappy child feel even more miserable, behaviour worse, all trust gone etc.

Hang on a sec OP, riding is one of the very few truly unisex sports, it might just appeal to her on that basis. Other things that spring to mind; karate, cooking, sailing (or rowing). All require expenditure of energy, thought and a degree of self discipline without making any of it too obvious. maybe her Granny would be able to help with taking her to try out a few things? Does she like animals, have you considered a dog? There's lots and lots of love going backwards and forwards between dog and young human, again without any perceived 'soppiness'.
I am so glad you gave up the idea of wrecking her Christmas (and yours as well!). I do understand that you must be feeling absolutely desperate but you are, sorry to say, going to have to draw even deeper on your reserves, as will the rest of the family. How are her older siblings coping? Do they understand that there is an actual problem, not just badly behaved horribleness?
I wish you all the best in the future.

If your 7 year old is behaving like this, there's something else going on. You need to get her assessed & Get her some counseling. Not continually punish her, it's not working is it.
She'll go no contact as an adult if you carry on and you'll play the victim card.
Poor little girl 😞

Let me just adjust that having a child is a blessing and a gift. God doesn’t give you more than you can handle! Sure parenting is stressful! You need to understand no to people especially no two children are alike. Cannot expect your youngest to act like your older children. She very well could be autistic, bipolar or be suffering from some PTSD. And if she isn’t suffering from PTSD, she will be after Christmas morning if you decide to add more trauma to her childhood!
I completely understand being at your wits end, but at the same time you need to understand, God can take your child away at any given time. When you least expect it! Could be at 7 … could be at 31 could be any age. I lost my son couple weeks before his 32nd birthday unexpectedly. He was riding in a ride chair coming back from a pharmacy. A truck was speeding so fast behind them on the highway that it slammed into the rideshare drivers vehicle with my son in the back. That was December 2, 2023. His death was called on the 5th and since he was an organ donor, he was removed from life support on the eighth when they took his organs
Just think? And the blink of an eye either your youngest or your oldest could be gone with no warning. I have three children, six grandchildren… it was my middle child. The one that was the most respectful, and most loving the most compassionate, that God took home early… I love all my kids dearly, but the one that brought everyone together and that would have done anything for anybody… it’s no longer here and it is devastated our entire family. Every morning I wake up, wishing that I could hear his voice give him a hug … just like most people… our holiday season was perfectly normal with a great Thanksgiving…. everything was fine. We were looking forward to Christmas and birthdays since all my kids birthdays are in December. Then I get a call on December 2. From a local military base where serious trauma patients are taken to… specially when they don’t have a name, age or anything on the patient. Took hours for them to verify that it was my son… just remember one day your child will grow up and you can make her childhood and your life, a blessing by learning from each other and how each other operate and work and think. Bringing your family closer to God… your child needs your love more than any Christmas present. But that goes for all your children. And maybe you’ll be the recipient of a greater love in return… always remember you get much more with sugar than you do vinegar in life. Applies to almost everything, including raising your children you can raise them with sour and bitterness, or you can raise them with sweet and lovingness … God bless you and yours!!! 🙏🏼💞🙏🏼💞🙏🏼

You are talking about a 7yo who is potentially Nd.

Don’t reflect back at her her own madnessr and throw your toys out of the pram and cancel Christmas.

that would be ridiculous.
she needs more love. More time. More investment. And you need to learn and learn fast. Damn. If it is that bad Ask family for money to get her reviewed privately.

a 7yo does not fall in with the wrong crowd and get excl from school without good reason. .

Whst else can you do…..
family therapy. Pay for it if you need to
learn more about her. Spend more time with her annd her siblings. Get out. And about. Get involved in the riding for disabled or local free golf or nature walks, basketball, athletics, sea scouts etc.
and Ask her what she wants to do and how can you help her to enjoy it and for it to be great for everyone.