Is the renaming of Dublin’s Herzog Park antisemitic?

[OpheliaIsntMad]

I think it is . Why make this decision at a time when anti semitism is increasing?

I don't think this is primarily about Chaim Herzog himself, it's about Israel

So all Jews alive or dead are all the same and all bear personal responsibility for current events? And by extension, it's OK to single out individual Jews to punish them for the transgressions of a country they don't live in and possibly have never even visited?

You don't want to accept that that is anti Semitism. But that is what it is.

There was a time when all Irish people living in the UK were pretty equally held in contempt and suspicion because of certain political circumstances, and iirc we didn't like that one bit.

No, it's nothing to do with "all Jews'.

Chaim Herzog is a former President of Israel, as State which is now widely held in contempt by other nations because of a litany of behaviour that stems back past Chaim Herzog's time. Hardly a surprise then that there is perhaps a reconsideration of whether it is appropriate to honour Herzog or not.

And by extension, it's OK to single out individual Jews to punish them for the transgressions of a country they don't live in and possibly have never even visited?

This is palpably ridiculous when the individual being discussed is a former Head of State of Israel, hardly someone who "never lived in Israel or possibly never even visited".

You don't want to accept that that is anti Semitism. But that is what it is

Again no. It's unquestionably anti-Israeli, and unquestionably anti-Chaim Herzog. It is not anti-Semitism.

There was a time when all Irish people living in the UK were pretty equally held in contempt and suspicion because of certain political circumstances, and iirc we didn't like that one bit

Of course, and this is every bit as reprehensible as holding all Jews in contempt and suspicion, but neither Israel, nor Chaim Herzog are "all Jews".

@mathanxiety

You asked -

Should we shun all things German?

Well clearly not. We don't. What we do though, and have done since, is shun the people and the regime responsible for the excesses of that State in the period you are alluding to.

Why should Israel and those responsible for Israeli excesses be spared the same?

We publicly honour all sorts of people.

Every country in the west had a hand in slavery, the exploitation of colonies, the genocide of indigenous populations, the ruin of ecosystems - including the sainted Irish, who now see fit to preach so smugly at everyone else, now that we've become so enlightened and all.

Claim Herzog was still alive when the last Magdalene Laundry closed shop. We all stood idly by while that abomination went on, and the scandal of the industrial schools too. We have nothing to be proud of. We have no reason to believe we have a lock on public or private morality.

Irish people enslaved Africans in the US. Irish people fought for the Confederacy. Irish people joined the KKK. Irish people pelted rocks at Martin Luther King Jr in Chicago, and they rioted against school desegregation in Boston. Irish people took land from the indigenous people of America and NZ and Australia. They joined the British navy and army in droves to take and keep the empire. They joined the Indian Army and Civil Service. They emigrated to South Africa and lived comfortably there during apartheid. Hundreds of Irish engineers and their families lived and worked in Saudi Arabia in the 70s and 80s. The Irish middle classes made money during the Famine. We export beef and other agricultural products to Saudi Arabia and China.

How about we blow up all the statues of the patriots we honour?

How about we get off our high horses and pour a nice bucket of cold water over ourselves.

How about we blow up all the statues of the patriots we honour?

I'm not going to quote the rest of your post, because broadly speaking I agree with the sentiment, however, with specific regard to this part I can honestly say that I wouldn't object at all, because personally I've always considered "patriotism" to be an illness and a vice, and not in any way a virtue.

I don't see any 'clearly not' . The car manufacturers and Hugo Boss in particular were happily in bed with the regime I'm alluding to, and so was the entire German military industrial pharmaceutical complex. All staffed by individuals who later claimed to have known nothing about the purpose of, for example, the ovens they produced and installed in the former Poland.

But we are dependent on the Germans and on modern Germany to a degree we are not dependent on the state of Israel, so cute hoors that we are, we turn a blind eye to the fact that hundreds of thousands of people who participated in genocide both within and outside of camps and both in and out of uniform rebuilt their country and got away with crimes some now apparently want to downplay if not forget altogether.

I would hazard a guess that a former president of Israel had most likely visited the country at least once or twice…

All perfectly valid points, and I agree entirely that it's often overlooked just how many complicit Germans were either swiftly rehabilitated and incorporated post-war, or never taken to task or their role even queried.

However, my main point was about the State itself, the Governing regime, and the various people involved in the Government. The conclusion of the War in Europe did for the State and a fair number of the senior individuals in Government, most of the remainder apprehended and tried.

If the equivalent were to happen to Israel, so Netenyahu, his Government, and for arguments sake some of his predecessors were they still alive, apprehended and put on trial, I expect much the same would happen in wider Israel in that members of the IDF, Israeli businesses involved in supply chain, Israeli civil service, Israeli Intelligence etc would largely continue on with their lives completely unmolested, including those personally responsible for illegal acts, and those responsible for facilitating them. It just isn't feasible to interrogate every Israeli citizen, or, in the event you do somehow uncover some evidence of wrongdoing, compile a case against them and bring it to trial. This is why it's the leadership who are held to account for the actions of States, and not every single citizen or entity therein.

Clearly there wasn't the will, means, or framework to investigate and try every single German citizen alive in 1945, nor the will to formally dissolve complicit businesses. I do not believe that is or was in any way a realistic or practical undertaking in any case, given that there was no precedent for even trying the surviving German leadership.

You are 100% tarring this man with the anti Semitic brush, no doubt without once looking up his career or the positions of the party he was a member of. You are also seemingly unaware of the fact that the presidency of Israel is very much a figurehead role.

It's enough for some that he was an Israeli Jew and there's a handy little park whose name once honored a man whose family were well respected members of the Irish community and the city of Dublin, and that this man was president of a country some of us will be fulminating against until the next popular cause for the terminally angry appears on the horizon, or they all turn vegan and feel sorry for themselves instead.

Carry on claiming that it's OK to single out one individual who happens to have had a military and political career in a state we once cheered for because they too beat the British (emulating the tactics of the IRA and adopting names like Michael.Collins as noms de guerre), and because back then we didn't like the Arabs who had not admitted the right of the state of Israel to exist, and we remembered the Holocaust, and the Limerick pogrom, and we recalled Irish politicians of the ilk of Oliver J. Flanagan, and the Irish who fought for Franco, with shame. We have very short memories and we are very, very smug and shameless nowadays.

We were happy to include Israel in the Eurovision and cheer for several winning Israeli acts, including one that claimed the trophy after Herzog left office. Were there no questions raised back in the period 1983 to 1993 about various Israeli policies? Apparently not.

So anyone who mentions the genocide is antisemitic?

You misread my post.

My point was why don't the Irish go out and attack all the Jews living in Ireland, if we are so determined to express our repugnance at the policies of the current government? After all, we are perfectly willing to spit on the memory of a distinguished Irish Jewish man who was a member of a moderate Israeli party and served his adopted country with distinction at a time when we all thought Israel was the bees knees.

Anyone who uses the genocide as an excuse to hate all Jews and spit on their memory is antiSemitic, yes.,

You are 100% tarring this man with the anti Semitic brush, no doubt without once looking up his career or the positions of the party he was a member of. You are also seemingly unaware of the fact that the presidency of Israel is very much a figurehead role

No, I'm well aware of all of this, and again, there is nothing whatsoever "anti- Semitic" in scrutinising the behaviours of a nation state or its senior politicians. It happens to every country which involves themselves in major world events. Do you similarly contend that any and all scrutiny and criticism of the Iranian Theocracy is anti-Islamic or anti-Shiite? No, of course you don't, because this would be every bit as baseless and ridiculous as claiming any scrutiny or criticism of Israel is entirely motivated by anti-Semitism.

We were happy to include Israel in the Eurovision and cheer for several winning Israeli acts, including one that claimed the trophy after Herzog left office. Were there no questions raised back in the period 1983 to 1993 about various Israeli policies? Apparently not.

Speak for yourself. Plenty of people were every bit as disgusted with the Israeli State's conduct in this period as they are now.

After all, we are perfectly willing to spit on the memory of a distinguished Irish Jewish man who was a member of a moderate Israeli party and served his adopted country with distinction at a time when we all thought Israel was the bees knees

Again you are speaking only for yourself regarding the "bees knees" comment.

I'm Irish, I think Dublin City Council was acting disgracefully. Chaim Herzog is a person for Ireland to be proud of.

National politicians are (rightly) distancing themselves from this. If there's a mood for renaming things we should start with anything named for John Mitchel.

Nonsense

They stand up for Palestine
They call out a genocide for what it is

How could they do otherwise???
Impossible to ignore it

I know someone who is passionately pro-Palestinian, and anti-Israel, to the point that yes, I do think he veer can close to anti-semitism in some of his statements (though he would deny it) even he is uncomfortable with this. It’s just not a good look in any way.

Why are you blaming the whole of Ireland? The government has come out against it. The people have no say in it.
Dial it back, FFS.

There is no genocide. The war, at worst, is no different to any other.
At best, Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilian casualties.

This is why you have to keep blaming the rest of the world for being 'antisemitic'. It's your own delusional attachment to a completely false narrative.

Brendan ONeill in The Spectator
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ireland-wants-you-to-forget-chaim-herzog/

Brendan ONeill in the Spectator
”Now Ireland is erasing its Jewish history. This week Dublin City Council voted to change the name of Herzog Park in the south of Dublin. The park was named for Chaim Herzog, the Belfast-born, Dublin-raised Jew who later became the sixth president of Israel. ‘Following consideration, the Committee agreed… that the name “Herzog” should be removed from the park’, says the council’s chilling missive. Scrubbing the name of a Jew from a public park? Tell me that isn’t anti-Semitism.”

Absolutely.
To change the name is to suggest Irish born Jews are somehow responsible for things that happen in other countries.
It must be deeply upsetting for Irish Jews.

It’s clearly antisemitic.

We Irish are setting ourselves up as some sort of moral judge and jury for the world, but are extremely myopic when it suits.

Ireland is one of Israel's largest import partners, with total imports valued at around $4.15 billion in 2024. That’s not going to change, as it’s part and parcel of our profit washing deal with large US companies who keep the place afloat.

We say we fight for the under dog but never once have I hear the plight of the Uyghurs discussed in person or the appalling situation in Yemen. Yet thousands marched for Palestine in Dublin yesterday.

What were his accomplishments in Ireland - he left in his teens?