Is the renaming of Dublin’s Herzog Park antisemitic?

[OpheliaIsntMad]

I think it is . Why make this decision at a time when anti semitism is increasing?

I can assure you that in the UK we are up against both the lily livered government and, in many cases the police e.g. the Met in London and West Midlands Police, in trying to combat antisemitism here.

Irish state's active decision be be at the forefront of criticism of Israel though
Which is not antisemitic. Should everyone just say nothing when they see war crimes taking place. Give over you are now equating criticism of the Israel government with antisemitism thought that was antisemitic.

I have zero issue with the Irish governments stance on the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza and the west Bank and maybe they were one of the first to be vocal about it but they were certainly not the last.

I think you will find overall it is Israel 'that has been put under the microscope more than any other nation on MN' over the past two + years.
Absolutely they have for their war crimes and potential genocide would be strange and concerning if they weren't.

No genocide has taken place.

Oh for gods sake, really? Again we go though this?? Criticism of Israel is not automatically antisemitic. Of course it isnt. Nobody ctiticises the Israeli government more than Israelis.

But you can't say criticism of the Israeli government 'isnt antisemitic'. That's ridiculous. It often IS motivated by antisemitism. If the only foreign country you bang on about is Israel, you are almost certainly antisemitic. If you see only Israel to blame for the conflict you are antisemitic. If you accuse people who express support for Israel as being paid by the Israeli government you are using antisemitic tropes and you might want to check what antisemitic propaganda you are consuming.

And, by the way, Rachel.Moiselle is also pretty critical of the Israeli government. It doesn't stop her being able to recognise antisemitic criticism of Israel and separate it out from non racist criticism.

And anyway, that wasnt the point I was making. I was talking about why Ireland had a high profile in this debate. Its not because of Self-hating Irish people, as Rachel has been characterised.

Even if you accept war crimes committed by Israel (Which I do) or genocide (which I dont) here are war crimes and genocide in many other parts of the world with NOTHING LIKEthe attention that Israel gets either in Ireland, the UN or lretty much anywhere else Thats the fucking point.

I think that’s because it’s part of the Western world @SharonEllis. It’s closer to home in that sense. US news is absolutely huge too, Russia/Ukraine etc. And not many on MN support Russia or Trump so less controversial here too?

So it’s human nature I think. Doesn’t cover anyone in glory though, the way we’re all so self-obsessed.

Israel is in the Middle East.

Nope, and no matter how many times it's called, won't change that stance.

Oh for heavens sake I know where it is 😂
It’s also in the Eurovision. Not even going to get into all the rest as I know you know!

So in what way is it in the 'Western World'?

Or @DaisyDenise are you getting at that weird racism of low expectations that Jews are held to a higher standard than the Arabs and other ethnicities in the Middle East? You know Morocco is also eligible to participate in Eurovision but doesnt because of Israel? Is Morocco therefore in the Western World?

I didn’t know Morocco was in the Eurovision. I haven’t ever seen them compete. I don’t follow it though.

Most of what I say is twisted on here.

They only competed once - a year when Israel did not. They dont compete because they hate Israel and wont take part in a singing contest that includes Israel. Are you starting to see it now?

Please give me some credit. I can do without questions implying I’m uneducated.

Oh come on, How did I imply you were uneducated? Im trying to understand what your definition of the Western World is and you're not being very forthcoming. You cant guarantee on here that people will recognise antisemitism, I dont think its anything to do with levels of education. Just up thread someone said criticism of Israel isnt antisemitic! When of course it can be, like when Morocco wont compete in Eurovision.

@DaisyDenise also Lebanon was due to take part once but withdrew because it was illegal in Lebanon to broadcast Israeli content.

‘Are you starting to see it now?’
About basic knowledge.
Don’t play games please.

You can look up why Israel is often considered part of the Western world if you’re really interested. I’m certainly not going to go into it all here.

I dont think Israel is considered part of the Western world by anyone who knows much about it? Its a ME country, with a ME language, ME food and culture, surrounded by other countries in the ME.
Perhaps you think its part of the Western World because its a democracy?

If you know anything at all about Israel it is definitely a Middle Eastern country but with capabilities e.g. technological, more often associated with Western ones, and a mix of ethnicities. A veritable melting pot.

No I was referring to deep antisemitism in the MENA. I dont think the extent of it is 'basic knowledge' & you didnt know Morocco didnt compete because of it. As I say, education has nothing to do with it.

Yes I know why some people consider Israel part of the ' Western World'. I wanted to know why you do.

For some its because it supports their false view of Israel as a white colonial settler state. Those people dont usually know much about the history or that Israel is majority Mizrahi.

For others its a form of racism against others in the region, as I referred to above.

Israel is certainly the only democracy in the Middle East and democratic values are arguably Western but its odd when that is used as a stick to beat Israel with, rather than something to admire.

I was referring to deep antisemitism in the MENA. I dont think the extent of it is 'basic knowledge' & you didnt know Morocco didnt compete because of it.

You think the position of MENA countries re Israel and Jewish people is coming as a surprise? Seriously?
(I didn’t know Morocco competed at all. It wasn’t that I was somehow confused about their reasons for not competing.)

You don’t think there might be more positive reasons why Israel is often seen as part of the Western World?
No doubt if I denied the close links you’d say I was othering the Israeli people for anti-semitic reasons.

As ever, the ever so (not) subtle undertones soon give way to full on mask slipping. I really do wish some would stop pissing about and show their hand earlier. It really would save everyone's time. If you're so precious about your country being accused of bigotry maybe try calling them out on it if you're really that opposed. The whole world can see which particular nations have an antisemitism problem.

Yes, I think many people dont really understand the depth of hatred for Jews & Israel in MENA and how it manifests itself. They tend to see things primarily through the lens of Palestinians, which is only part of the story.

Some people see Israel positively and see how its culture and values aligns with aspects of Western culture and values. But generally Israel's culture and values are Jewish, not Western, and Judaism is a Middle Eastern religion and Jews are historically a Middle Eastern people. Today, still the majority of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi.
What has become really predominant in the discourse is to see Jews as western in order to delegitimate their indigeneity and support the idea that Israel is a European colonial settler state. So some might naively think calling Israel 'western' is a compliment, but its misguided and conceals a multitude of sins.

Tbh I don't understand your last sentence. The more links with Israel the bettter as far as I'm concerned. One of my colleagues just came back from a visit - she had a wonderful time.

👏 👏 @Oinseach and you certainly are not. 😀😉