To challenge autistic DD’s detention?

[ThisFairShark]

Dd (14) is autistic, diagnosed at age 8. She has trouble reading social cues and knowing what is/isn’t appropriate to say, she’s always very honest at all times! and has a support plan at school and is under the SEND team.

In school, she wasn’t paying attention in her science lesson and a teacher apparently said “(DD’s name) am I boring you?” to which DD replied “yes a little”. The whole class started laughing and DD got given a lunchtime detention to be served next week.

I know for all intents and purposes this is rude behaviour but I’ve spoken to DD and she genuinely didn’t realise that this was something she wasn’t supposed to say, the teacher asked a question and she gave an honest answer…

now I’ve spoken to her about how the teacher actually just wanted her to pay attention and this was their way of asking her to do so, but I don’t really think she should have to do the detention as she wasn’t aware that she was being rude nor did she intend to be rude, she just doesn’t have the social awareness to understand that the teacher actually just wanted to pay attention and wasn’t genuinely asking if she found the lesson boring.

WIBU to talk to the school, CC’ing in the SENCO and ask that she be excused from the detention, and that in future, if teachers could be clearer (for example, “pay attention please, DD’s name”)?

I don’t think you are being unreasonable. Schools are meant to make adjustments for nd traits so they should make an adjustment.

and teachers should learn not to use sarcasm with autistic kids.

I would use this as a teaching point for your daughter, however as a teacher I wouldn’t say this to an autistic child ( or to be honest any child) and if I did say something that was taken literally without thinking I would realise my mistake and address it in a different way. ( have actually done similar before, and just rephrased what I was saying- definitely wouldn’t have given a detention for it)

I'm a secondary teacher with 18 years experience and have taught many ND students. For what it's worth my response at the time (and has been in a similar situation) would be something like "thanks for the honest feedback, sweetie, but sadly we all have to do things that bore us!" I'd probably then follow up with a quiet word after the lesson. Ask an honest question expect an honest response! It genuinely wouldn't bother me at all and I wouldn't see it as rude tbh if I'd asked the question!

I'm autistic so I so have a little sympathy for her. I've (to a degree) learned how to respond appropriately in these situations but my face still tends to reveal my honest thoughts and feelings. I'm no good at composing it at all. I think she should just get on with the detention and use it as an opportunity to get some homework done. I don't think you should contact the school at all. She's old enough now to start advocating for herself and to improve her communication skills.

There is no problem, at all.

The child did not challenge, they were honest.

"They were asked a clearly rhetorical question" and because the teacher didn't like the answer the child has to do a detention?

Obviously, imho, some adults find it intolerable that a young person could have the audacity " to question" them.

Why? just because they're older?

But a very common thing with autism is to not transfer learning to new situations - i think its called difficulty with generalisation.

They might be taught by rote that the only acceptable answer to hair cuts is "lovely' but they wont generalise that to new jumpers or make a leap to boring teachers.

Obviously its a spectrum disorder, but it would be completely in line with her diagnosis to think like that.

I really hope you take note of the advice offered to you.

As a teacher and parent of an Autistic child, I would absolutely explain to the teacher. There is a training need here. Your daughter did not intend to be rude and that is key. You can say that you absolutely accept the need for a consequence in front of the class but that she shouldn’t be asking questions like that unless she wants a truthful and honest answer.
Please ignore the “mummy’s emailed again” or “disability is get out of jail free card” type responses as there is a huge difference between advocating for your child whose behaviour is being misinterpreted due to special needs and a parent condoning a naughty child. I would also like to know if your daughter has ADHD also? Because in which case it is also not appropriate for her to be punished for losing focus. A gentle reminder would be much more appropriate. Teachers in my school would know not to ask those type of questions.
Yes, it is a teaching point to explain why it is perceived as rude but it is important to make a distinction between what is honest, direct communication as typical with Autism
and deliberate rudeness. In this situation, my daughter would be incredibly upset by the fact she has upset someone completely unintentionally but also at being punished for it. It would add to her already heightened anxiety.
In general, Autistic individuals cannot just “learn” not to do it again without explanation. Autism is literally an impairment with social skills and communication and for some, all that happens is they mask more or become even more introverted not communicating socially at all for fear of saying the wrong thing. Which is why kind correction and education is key - not punishment. Trying to fit in to these norms is why mental health issues are 2-3 times more likely and suicide 7-9 times more likely in Autistic individuals. People need to be more tolerant and understanding and support rather than punish for unintentional behaviour. I would email the explanation to prevent future issues and also prevent exactly the problems as mentioned above as regards to how your daughter then reacts going forward and the future relationship with the teacher. There is a difference between criticising the teacher and being supportive but explaining with the intention of preventing further issues.

Your DD should do the detention as it will maybe make her think twice about not paying attention

I agree op that she shouldn’t have been a detention. Teacher was using a rhetorical question which your dc took literally. The teacher should not use ambiguous language to her. It’s not her fault she slipped up. The old saying ‘don’t ask the question if you don’t want to hear the answer’ fits.

Mother to an ND DD who would have answered that kind of question in that way. And if had been given a detention would have spiralled into rigid thinking about answering a question honestly. And the teacher / school would have lost her.

I think I'd say to DD she would have to do the detention because it had been given for partly not paying attention. However, I would certainly be addressing the way questions were asked and discouraging the use of that kind of passive aggressive sarcastic question with the teacher and the SEND team

As for the question "who would be a teacher" my response would be that we all learn how to be better every day. The OPs DD has learnt not to answer that question in that way and the teacher should learn it's not appropriate to ask a ND person a question in that way. My DDs diagnosis and recommended reasonable adjustments includes communication methods from staff. Just because someone is a teacher it doesn't mean they aren't capable of being questioned or held to account.

That's some amazing KS2 logic right there

Firstly, reasonable adjustments for those with disabilities is the law. Secondly, there is a difference between equity and equality. There are some lovely visuals which explain this very clearly.
A child who has vision issues should not be punished for being unable to see. Likewise a child with Autism should not be punished for literal, direct communication or dyregulation due to sensory issues or changes in routine. Same as a child with ADHD should not be punished for not being able to focus. I’m sure if I asked anyone if you agree with someone being punished for having a disability, there would be a collective “no” of horror, yet that is what is being advocated for. It is not the same as naughty behaviour and trained teachers know the difference. This is something I teach and explain to the children in my class and funnily enough, they are then completely understanding and supportive of any measures in place. This makes for a better environment for all, as the ND children in my class get understanding and adjustments which enable them to succeed and the other children learn tolerance and acceptance of others.

This thread is so upsetting. Children with autism "just need to learn" ... to... what? Not be autistic?! They have a nervous system disability which results in differences with communication. I think it is awful to see the comments on here. "Mummy's emailed again"... wow.

And yes school absolutely can "let her off the hook" for this, it's a reasonable adjustment for a disabled child. It's irrelevant how that behaviour would be perceived in someone neurological.

Like a PP if this happened to my autistic DD she would genuinely be unable to attend that lesson or interact with that teacher again. It is a gross breach of trust and a disproportionate punishment. High masking autistic people often have a heightened sense of justice but also carry acute shame at their lack of nuanced social skills. I do not allow adults to reinforce that. "How will she cope in the world of work?" I don't fucking know. It terrifies me. Do not think I am naive to the issue. But I cannot prepare her in the same way I prepare her siblings for adulthood, and I will continue to support her to muddle through as much as possible.

😆

Whether our children are ND or NT, why can't they express their dissent?

Because...adults are wiser/learned/more enlightened?

The teacher took umbrage because the child answered honestly and they gave a detention because they didn't like their answer.

Please don’t be terrified by the world of work. I think you will find that workplaces are streets ahead of schools when it comes to reasonable adjustments. I am constantly surprised and delighted by things my husband reports are happening in the corporate world around this. It’s very positive.

Unless your DD is seriously distressed I'd say just get the detention done and make this a teaching moment. Don't make it a bigger thing than it needs to be.

This does strike me as a case of ask a stupid question get a stupid answer though.

but why should the detention not be challenged @WhatNoRaisins?

It should be a teaching moment for the teacher, not the child, surely?

its really tough, I know how you’re feeling

My ds14 has ADHD and has received detentions before for not paying attention or forgetting things he needed.

I tend to not intervene too quickly now ds is getting older as he does need to learn to use the strategies that are in place to help him without me jumping in to defend him every time. If it were more serious or getting more frequent I’d absolutely be involved but not for a one-off incident.

I think if it were me, I’d accept the detention on this occasion, and encourage dd to have a short restorative conversation with a brief apology to the teacher and explain why she misunderstood.

I think OP has to work out what will cause her DD less stress longer term though. Sometimes it is easier to suck up something unfair but not too big a deal than have a longer term battle.

Talk to the SENDCo in the first instance. I wouldn't ask that question of a child I knew to have autism.

YABU.

Ultimately, you can't actually prove to the teacher that your DD really didn't know she was being rude, and she probably does need to learn a bit about the consequences of her bluntness. You've got to consider the example it sets to other kids in the class if she's seen to 'get away with' being rude to her teachers.

Also... she's 14, not 7. She's past the age where it's appropriate for her mum to be getting involved in petty stuff like this. If everyone's mum contacted the school whenever a teenager perceived a small punishment as mildly unfair, nobody would ever have time to teach anything.

I have two autistic children. One is 14. He knows that some behaviours will get certain consequences. I don’t think it does any favours to say because they are autistic they do not have to learn when to not say some things. A lunchtime detention is hardly a harsh punishment and she will likely learn from it.
Autism makes is harder to learn what not to say in which situations, but it doesn’t make it impossible.
Imagine she said that to her boss in the future. Do you think they would, or should, say ‘oh well, she’s autistic, so I have to suck it up’? Imagine she said something like this to a client. Or in front of a client to a coworker. Better to learn at school when it’s just a short detention.

I’m a teacher. I think you should email the teacher and explain the reason for your dd’s answer. Her teacher will understand her better next time and will question her more appropriately if they understand how your dd interprets what they say. It’s possible they would then decide to cancel the detention