How to prevent grandparents from smacking our child

[Newparent101]

Sorry for the long post, seeking your wise advice!

My partner's dad (aged 70) uses smacking as a way to "teach", which I'm totally against. My partner, however, thinks I'm being unreasonable and that smacking is an effective way to discipline. I just don't agree.

We have our first baby, who's 4 months old. My nieces are 7 and 3, and the grandfather smacks them to "teach" them when they've done something wrong. My sister in law told him she doesn't want him to smack her kids - the grandfather (her father-in-law) stopped speaking to her for a year. Now they have made up, but he smacks her girls again.

I want to find a way to prevent it from ever happening in the first place, and have already told my partner that if his dad (or he) smacks our child I'll immediately take our child away and she won't be seeing her grandfather again.

But of course I want to prevent this ever happening in the first place. I suspect my father-in-law won't listen to me if I state this boundary (given he ignored my sister-in-law for a year and now smacks her girls again). My partner refuses to "lay down the law" with his dad. What's more complicated is his parents don't speak English (they're german) and my german isn't very good.

Anyone have any advice on how to make sure this doesn't happen well ahead of time? Would really like to prevent being in situation where I need to keep our daughter away from him, and also want to ensure that first "smack" never happens. My partner says it's up to me to speak to his dad, but I know his dad won't listen to me. But also struggling to get my partner to acknowledge just how damaging smacking can be (he's also defensive, since of course he was smacked by his dad as a child). My partner and I have had numerous conversations about it already but I can't seem to get through to him.

You don't really have a lot of leverage to be laying down the law unfortunately. If you were to split up, your child's father could leave your child alone with his dad and there would be nothing you could do about it (obviously unless something had already happened and there was police or SS involvement - although I don't know how this would play out either across two countries).

Totally mad decision to have a baby with a wet blanket whose father you already knew was abusive to grandchildren, especially with the international element. But you're here now, living the entirely predictable reality that you chose. I think all you can do is hope that your relationship doesn't break down at any point and make sure that you are always present when there's contact with the grandfather.

Your partner says its up to you to tell his Dad and that he doesn't see anything wrong with smacking? You have a bigger problem here, your partner. Are you certain your partner isn't also going to revert to smacking as this is they way he was raised and doesn't see a problem with it?

This. Op, you’re going to have to be the steely, hard bitch here to protect your dcs.

Your oh is a pathetic specimen.

Your fil likes hitting kids.

I don’t think you have a choice but to step up in this way.

In fact if he doesn’t say yes, then I wouldn’t even let him see the child.

It's been illegal in Germany since 1992 or something. Honestly it's weird and outdated. I live in Germany and nobody hits children. There isn't a euphemism like "smacking" either, the word used (Schlagen) translates to hitting or beating.

Even shouting at children is seen as unnecessarily harsh here. They rarely even use time out. Grandfather is simply a nasty bully. Don't put this down to cultural differences.

It’s not up to you to convince them not to smack your child. It’s up to them to convince you he won’t or the child doesn’t go. Ever. They only come to your house to see the baby and you never take the baby there until they have convinced you it won’t happen.

the biggest problem here isn’t your FIL, it’s your DP as he agrees snacking is normal. Your FIL is a red herring here. Deal with your DP’s attitude - U’d be more worried he will smack your child first when the toddler years arrive and frustration starts.

I’d smack him back, personally. He’ll soon understand then.

Make sure your dd knows hitting kids is unacceptable. No matter what anyone - grandad- says. Threatening to hit as well.

Make sure your dh tells grandad in person in front of everyone you and he do not hit kids and furthermore will not allow anyone else to hit their dd. It's not up for diiscussionthats the rule.

But he will.most likely ignore you all. Always be there.

All this “never leave him alone with your child” is too soft for me. You tell this old bastard that if he ever even looks at your child the wrong way, you’ll end him.

If he ever dies raise his hand, you phone the police right away and have him arrested.

Communicate this however you need to - Google translate if you must. You make him understand

I wouldn’t hesitate to give him a slap too. He’s probably more vulnerable than you, but he has no issue with that kind of imbalance when he’s hitting small kids.

In my book it's assault and abuse. I'd be saying that to the grandfather and your husband and reminding them that the law is on your side - and that you'd waste no time cutting abusive deadwood from your lives. How likely do you feel your husband is to turn to smacking? With the grandfather, as pp have said, make a point of never leaving her unsupervised, even for a few minutes during a visit.

You tell him that if he lays a finger on your child you will report him to the police. This sounds like more than just discipline if I’m honest, he’s a grandparent, he shouldn’t need to be involved with any sort of chastising? Why is he so involved? I would be asking about what he is getting from it, sounds suspicious to me.

My DH parents did spank him but so did almost all parents of their generation. I made it clear to DH before we had kids that this was something I would never allow. I made it clear to Mil that if she was ever to be alone with my children she had to know that spanking or any violence (physical or verbal) is forbidden and she would not see my children again if she went against that. I also printed out articles where different experts gave their opinions on using violence towards children. But I made sure to tell Mil that I know she did what she thought one was supposed to do but now we know better just like with smoking. (Didn't want to send her into a mumguilt depression).

It worked out just fine.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3768154/

https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain

Here are some articles to print out for them.

I was smacked (not much) by my parents. I don't have a massive issue with it in extreme circumstances (I don't feel I was damaged by it personally, and I can see that in dangerous circumstances, a smack to deter dangerous behaviou might be a route that would work).

I don't smack my own children though, and no-one else will ever smack my children and see them again.

It's not your FIL's place to administer physical punishment to your children. He did what he felt was right to his children, but you get to decide that for your children.

It is a pity that your partner isn't prepared to stand up to his father for his children - does he believe in smacking then?

This is appalling? Isn’t smacking illegal these days? I would not let a smacker anywhere near my child.

I would be speaking to him before he goes near your child, to explain that hitting your child at any point is absolutely not acceptable, not in the Uk, not in Germany, not ever.
I would be polite but very, very clear that if he so much as brushes a hand against your child as punishment, you will report him and he won’t ever see his grandchild again.
You need to explain this loud and clear to your husband too. Explain it’s assault and his job is to protect your child not make excuses because his Dad is old and German.
I know many German people and not one would find this behaviour normal or acceptable. It’s not a cultural thing, he’s just a bit of a nasty twat.
I’m amazed your SIL allows him near her children - is there anyone, apart from you, who advocates for the children in the family?

Even better. Tell him you will report him to the police! Google search result.

No, it is illegal to hit children in Germany. German law explicitly guarantees children the right to a non-violent upbringing.
In 2000, the German Civil Code was amended to state: "Children have the right to a non-violent upbringing. Corporal punishment, psychological injuries and other humiliating measures are prohibited".
Key aspects of the law:
Prohibition in all settings: The ban applies to all environments, including the home, schools, and penal institutions.
Legal Consequences: Any form of physical violence against a minor as a means of punishment can lead to legal consequences, including the involvement of youth welfare services and potential court action. Severe abuse is subject to the German Criminal Code, the same as assault on an adult.
Societal Norms: The law reflects a strong societal consensus that violence is not an acceptable form of discipline, and public opinion largely supports non-violent child-rearing methods.
Germany is one of many countries in Europe that have completely outlawed the corporal punishment of children in all circumstances, with Sweden being the first to do so in 1979.

THIS.

In 1950 it became illegal for teachers to hit children in Sweden. In 1979 it became illegal for parents to hit their children.
In France it became illegal in 2019, in Scotland 2020 and in Wales 2022.

As someone who has a relative who thinks smacking is ok, there is no way of reasoning with him. My db and nephews just don't see him anymore and the relative knows why but just refuses to understand it. My ds was never left alone, all dc older teens now but he still thinks he was right. All you can do is never leave alone and even then, my relative smacked a child in front of the parents - they walked out, some people just won't think they are wrong.

The only way to prevent it is to always supervise him with your dd. What if you dh decides to hit her? You realise that even if you seperate he can still have achess?

This. He cannot be alone with the grandchildren. Ever. He has demonstrated he abuses his other grandchildren. Do not give him the chance to abuse your child.

I also have German in-laws and a wet blanket of a husband. Not divorcing because they are so awful I cannot risk any shared custody. They have been absolutely dreadful with DC and we are minimal contact.

Please make a welfare report for your nieces:

• Legal right: German law gives children the right to a non-violent upbringing, which prohibits corporal punishment in all settings, including the home.
• Prohibited acts: This includes smacking on any part of the body, as well as psychological injury and other humiliating forms of punishment.

It is a crime in Wales.

Wenn du jemals meine tochter schlägst wirst du sie nie wieder sehen.

My in-laws had this ridiculous notion that you could ‘bop’ a child on their head if they were being naughty. I was very, very clear that this was in no way something that was going to happen and it never has.

I see a lot of issues here though - I wouldn’t want to be around any of this- wouldn’t want my child witnessing their GP hitting their cousins and of course could not put my child in the position of being hit. Ever. Once is more than I’m willing to consider.

So if your partner won’t say it (and yes - agree it’s not a good idea to leave him as then he’d be alone with your child and who knows what he’d allow to happen), then you need to send an email. Get someone who knows German to check the translation so you’re sure it’s clear. I’d want a promise that he’d not hit your kid, or any other child in front of her. If he can’t make that promise then you won’t see him. If he makes the promise and breaks if then you won’t see him. And stick to it.

your Child is your only responsibility here, you don’t need to prioritise your in-laws. They are adults and can follow your rules.