How to prevent grandparents from smacking our child

[Newparent101]

Sorry for the long post, seeking your wise advice!

My partner's dad (aged 70) uses smacking as a way to "teach", which I'm totally against. My partner, however, thinks I'm being unreasonable and that smacking is an effective way to discipline. I just don't agree.

We have our first baby, who's 4 months old. My nieces are 7 and 3, and the grandfather smacks them to "teach" them when they've done something wrong. My sister in law told him she doesn't want him to smack her kids - the grandfather (her father-in-law) stopped speaking to her for a year. Now they have made up, but he smacks her girls again.

I want to find a way to prevent it from ever happening in the first place, and have already told my partner that if his dad (or he) smacks our child I'll immediately take our child away and she won't be seeing her grandfather again.

But of course I want to prevent this ever happening in the first place. I suspect my father-in-law won't listen to me if I state this boundary (given he ignored my sister-in-law for a year and now smacks her girls again). My partner refuses to "lay down the law" with his dad. What's more complicated is his parents don't speak English (they're german) and my german isn't very good.

Anyone have any advice on how to make sure this doesn't happen well ahead of time? Would really like to prevent being in situation where I need to keep our daughter away from him, and also want to ensure that first "smack" never happens. My partner says it's up to me to speak to his dad, but I know his dad won't listen to me. But also struggling to get my partner to acknowledge just how damaging smacking can be (he's also defensive, since of course he was smacked by his dad as a child). My partner and I have had numerous conversations about it already but I can't seem to get through to him.

You’re worried about what will happen when you visit them in Germany. But the law is on your side. It’s also on your side in your other home in Spain where all physical discipline is also illegal. In England it’s illegal unless the parents consent (which you don’t).

To your partner: Tell your father that if he tries to hit our daughter, I’m calling the police, I don’t care what your sister allows.

To your father-in-law: Das Schlagen eines Kindes ist eine Straftat. (Or in England: Mein Kind ohne meine Zustimmung zu schlagen, ist eine Straftat.) Ich werde die Polizei rufen, falls jemand versucht, mein Kind zu schlagen.

That this man continues to hit his other grandchildren despite it being illegal in his country and despite their mother asking him not to is a red flag. It suggests he thinks the law doesn’t apply to him and that he doesn’t care about other people’s boundaries.

Hi

i’m not sure you have seen the pp who have stated that smacking is illegal in Germany.

The reference is article 1631 (2) of the German Civil Code. This amendment was made back in November 2000, and states:
"Children have the right to a non-violent upbringing. Corporal punishment, psychological injuries and other humiliating measures are prohibited"
This is a translation of the German Civil Code. It appears on page 376.
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb.pdf

This study published by the Federal Ministry of Family Affairs and the Federal Ministry of Justice published in 2003 about knowledge and attitudes in 2001 might also be useful reading https://www.bmbfsfj.bund.de/resource/blob/93976/d9444e5db8a2b5536bdaf2ae1f599c7c/gewaltfreie-erziehung-bussmann-englisch-data.pdf
There are various things that you could pick out, but for a start

1. the first page is very clear about what punishments are prohibited 2)it states that there were public information campaigns and advertising when the reform was made (so it was widely publicised).

The above won’t change your FIL’s attitudes, but the ‘tiptoeing’ around him suggests that his children remain scared of him (the thing about smacking not teaching children right or wrong, but merely to be compliant because they fear the person who hit them). It may help you partner to see that it is wrong. Not only that, but it’s been illegal for 25 years!

I feel sorry for your SIL. She tried to do the right thing, and received further abusive behaviour from her father - this time psychological. Hopefully both siblings can come together and be consistent in this, for the good of all the children.

When the conversation with your FIL about never seeing him again if he hits your child is had, it should also be mentioned that it is illegal in his country.

I was smacked as a child, and I know it is wrong. My mother knew (from each of us siblings) that if she had ever raised a hand to one of the grandchildren, she would never see any of them again.

It would have been confusing and conflicting for your partner and his sister as they love their father and know he loves them…and yet he hit them. It was for me. I knew my mother loved me, but she still hit me. Maybe it’s OK to hit people as long as you love them? But then my brothers would get hit by her because they had a fight and hit each other and hitting people is wrong? I realised that she wasn’t hitting because she loved us but because she was angry and lost control on one occasion that I was hit because my sister was ‘naughty’, and then I was hit again with a second implement because the wooden spoon she used broke when she hit me with it. The second round of hitting made me question it all, as it wasn’t my fault that the spoon broke. That made me realise that it’s also a nonsense to say that the older children need to be punished for not making the younger one behave and that’s when I knew she was just lashing out at all of us as she was angry. It was the late 70s- early 80s, and even back then, I knew the behaviour wasn’t right, and that I couldn’t mention it to anyone in case they told their parents and we were ‘taken away’. It’s a very unsettling experience when the scales fall from your eyes like that as a child, and it does affect the relationship afterwards. I love my mother very much, but I lost some respect for her that day.

Don't be smug. How on earth would you know that this would be the case before you even got married?

But if the English law states that doing it's allowed if it's "reasonable punishment," would the teacher report it?

I don't know why England hasn't just banned it outright. Children need protection.

If there is violence towards a child you can report your dp to the social services, police and GP. That way should he ever be given visitation rights it would need to be supervised at a contact centre.

You can avoid that outcome by making it clear he can have counselling now, to prepare for more challenging days. He can research how to parent without violence (placing the child somewhere safe, and removing himself as a strategy etc)

Please don’t have any further dc until you know he can be completely trusted. You need to wait at least a few years. Do not impair your ability to protest your child.

I think that I would address this really practically rather than emotionally.

Because they’re in a different country, there is no day-to-day risk, so that helps massively.

When you visit I would begin staying somewhere else rather than with them. That reduces the time together and allows you to leave any time dd is misbehaving to reduce the likelihood. Shorten the visits so that they’re more manageable - 3 or 4 days at a time rather than 10.

I would also try and avoid being there when she’s aged 2-4. That’s the prime age for tantrums etc which is often when people are likely to smack.

Id try and focus on some days out etc - my gut feeling is that this is less likely to happen on neutral territory than in his home.

Id make sure that she wasn’t out of my sight, even going as far as taking her to the loo with me, when he is present. And I’d remove her from him at the first sign of him trying to discipline even if he’s just saying “don’t do that”.

I do think that you need to improve your German enough that you feel confident discussing things in their language. But, until you get there, I would send both grandparents a written message, in German before each visit saying “I am just letting you know that we don’t smack dd. Please just let me know if she is being naughty, and don’t hit her”.

The problem here is your choice in men as a father .
So if he is happy with his dad smacking your child,that most probably means that is how he will discipline your child to .
I absolutely would leave in your situation..if he's not on the birth certificate even better

My mum smacked me and my brother as children in the 70s. I didn't leave my children alone with her for a day until they were 9 and 7 and it was when I really had no choice due to work. She smacked my 7 year old. She never looked after them again on their own. Ever.

You have to protect your child. Never leave her with her grandfather alone.

He is in another country! It’s very simple - just decide you are never taking your child there. Dp can visit his parents alone. If they visit here, they can stay in a hotel, and you can limit the visits to lunch in a restaurant or a picnic in the park kn full public view. Or refuse to see him at all. You don’t owe him anything op.

You don’t need to tie yourself in knots op, or frantically learn German. You can take control by telling dp your decision, and why. Your child’s safety of paramount.

My own mother smacked my son when he was 3. Hes 20 now.

We were going out for the day and I was driving, I couldn't believe it.

After that she never ever seen any of my dc without me being there.
I told her, if you put your hands on one of my dc again, you will never see them again.

Why do you let your kids anywhere near him?! So what if he stops talking to you, his loss

Do the grandfather and nieces live in Germany? Because one way to stop him smacking is to have him arrested for hitting his granddaughters. Either that or you could send some large bloke round to slap him about. I think the first will be more affective though, it doesn't sound like he has any self awareness.

This was my thoughts. The grandad won’t be an issue.

you need to speak to you DH about smacking the child.

I think talk of leaving your husband (so bringing up your daughter without a father) to prevent something that hasn’t even happened is more than a step too far. That doesn’t make it ok for her to be hit by her grandfather though. Is the grandmother on the scene? If so, what is her view?

Maybe the fact that your SIL is his daughter I assume?) makes a difference. I would definitely be learning how to express myself in German - at least around this subject - and would be telling my husband in no uncertain terms that he needs to step up. I would also be having a conversation about how you discipline your children as a couple, as the fact that he doesn’t see anything wrong with hitting children is concerning.

Good luck.

You need to find your absolute burning rage about this OP, and you need to verbally communicate this to him- very calmly but with absolute red hot steely conviction. Your poor sister in law tried, but she didn’t really mean it (evidenced by the fact she has given in and your nieces are being hit by him again). You make it clear- If you ever ONCE lay a single finger on our DD, you will never see her again. You might think I don’t really mean it- just watch me. There will be no second chances. She is not your child, you do not need to discipline her, that is our job. I am not going to say this again.

Or whatever works for you- have someone write it in German and practise it. You have to really mean it, and he has to know that, any sign of a people pleasing, apologetic, not really sure attitude will make him just think you’re scared of him and would never really follow through.

Your poor nieces. It will damage the relationship with their mother, knowing she gave in and sent them back to be hit again. The idea of him not talking to them for a year as a punishment is so ironic- sounds like a prize to me.

And I know there will be parts of him that are fun and kind and that the children may like him sometimes. That’s what often makes these things so hard, if he was just mean always if would be a lot easier to stay away, but you feel conflicted and think about all the good things they will miss. If someone hits a child, none of those good bits are worth it.

You sound strong and determined OP. Your husband’s fear of his father is evidence of why this approach is so damaging.

It will be pretty straightforward to keep the GF away from your child, or to only allow visits with you present. What is more concerning is the inability of your DP to stand up to his father in protecting his child (and SIL in protecting hers too). It strongly suggests that GF instilled such fear in them that he has cowed them for life and made them unable to contradict him. Perhaps DP needs to realise the impact that this had on him before he can truly protect your DC.

Imagine being so desperate to able to hit your small grandchildren, that you would stop talking to your adult child for a year!!!

That's fucking bizarre.

No way on this earth would I be allowing my child to be alone with this pathetic bully.

I believe smacking is illegal in Germany.

Your husband has to be the one who speaks to his father but really shoddy behaviour that he’s leaving it up to you. He is the father of your child and if he can’t support you on such a big aspect of your child’s wellbeing, how will he protect her in the future against potential harm/ threats?

Your FIL is a narcissist. He stopped talking to your sister in law because she dared speak up against him. What grandparent smacks their child? Thats down to the parents. Grandparents are usually the ones that “spoil” them.

Your husband is scared of his father. You will have to be the bad guy here and tell him that there will be no smacking of your child.

DH and I were born in the 60s when smacking was normal. Despite that, our parents have never laid a finger on our DC. Neither were we ever smacked by our DGPs.

Your first task is to confront your DH and tell him exactly what will happen if your FIL smacks your DC. Be clear, calm and very firm. Mine would have been told that all hell would have broken loose if my FIL hit my child.

On the first visit with a babe in arms, look the grandfather in the eyes and say in German (it's an easy language to speak)

"I know you discipline children by hitting them. The world has moved on since your day. If you ever hit this child you will never see her again. Do you understand? "

And keep repeating "do you understand" until he says "ja".

And if he won't, don't leave her for a second in his company, take her to the loo with you until she's old enough to call him out on it herself, even if that's 15.

I'm another child of the 1960s and was smacked by my parents. But never ever by any other family members, including GPs. It's your job to train your children, not his, regardless of the rights and wrongs of it.

No contact with GP on basis he’s vile overbearing bully

It definitely does not work that way in reality! I speak from experience…
As for your partner’s father, all you can do is not ever leave your child unsupervised with him. It sounds like he wouldn’t listen to you or his son anyway, so to pre-empt any problems don’t ever leave him alone with your child.

Poor girls ☹️ they are being abused and no one is stopping it happening

Wait till FIL makes a mistake and wallop him S hard as you can then claim you were teaching him. Your biggest problem is your partner. You’ve had a baby with someone who thinks it’s ok to hit children, and who is never going to stand up to your FIL.