To think that society does not require Botox

[MeridaBrave]

I’ve just started a new job and everyone is lovely. It’s a start up and there is a great atmosphere. A younger colleague (she is 28, so only 6 years older than my DD) said she has Botox. I asked why? She said society expects it so she has to. I really struggled to understand (I’m in my 50s and they recruited me for my technical skills).

I kept on saying I didn’t understand why it was required - clearly our employer wouldn’t care. To her it seems so obvious that it was expected by society. Eventually she said social media. I suppose also could be her social circle?

Am I being unreasonable to think that this is insane? I’m also worried about what sort of world we are bringing our daughters up into. What’s the point in feminism and equal opportunity if young women feel Botox is required.

Please tell this to my brother - a t12 paraplegic of 10 years - no sensation from heart down.

It's people who feel some kind of pressure who care. Others really don't.

If they think that too many people having procedures to improve their appearance means they actually look older/more tired by staying "natural", they don't like it.

But then you get comments like someone posted upthread about how as a responsible member of society they don’t want to go around with wrinkles.

The judgement goes both ways, doesn’t it?

Personally I don’t care what people do or don’t do to their faces. I also don’t want to be judged by what I do or don’t do to mine.

It is sad that as society so many people seem afraid of seeming or looking older. Which is a different issue to someone thinking they look better with certain treatments.

Yes. It is insane. I’m 61, had breast cancer and a mastectomy 9 years ago. You couldn’t pay me enough to inject botulism.

Well I'm not sure it has anything to do with feminism, I work in a male dominated field, and I have botox and lip filler.
Not really because I give a stuff about society's thoughts on me now, but I did look pissed off all the time before I had it, now I can't frown so I don't, and all I've been concerned about is that I don't reach 60+ and find myself in a position where I've aged so much I am uncomfortable with my looks and struggle to reverse it.

Do you question again and again everything you dont approve of?

The lengths that people - women mostly - feel they have to go to are so sad. That looks matter so much.

people care because we rare social animals who want the respect of the pack - and for many people looking good is a way they try to get it

advertsiers play on insecurities , feed them

does it work? Good looking people find life easier. That’s been measured. Many treatments however have an artificial look that people can detect and so it can backfire. To be seen as vain is not good. Which means you can’t better yourself ( visually) which is against the backdrops to our society - the Protestant “work hard and you will succeed “ -and the advertiser “ You can be anything you want”

@ItsameLuigi I think, if it’s discreet, it’s difficult to tell. You will see extremes of everything and spot that a mile off, but others is really not obvious. It makes them feel better and more confident, so be it. Most aren’t doing anything for men’s approval. Women do it for themselves.

Women have followed fashion for millennia! Look at some of the dresses in the late Victorian era and wonder how they had waists that small! Clearly an unhealthy fashion fad. I am not a fan the current bum cheek showing short skirts, but teens seem to like them. Are they wearing them to please boys or society? We have choices and we make our own. Thats surely feminism.

@Allseeingallknowing what I mean is that the relative cost of upkeep (let's say maybe £800 every six months) is not actually that high. If that is a priority for a woman/man and they are not earning particularly well, they could tweak their budget to achieve this regular spending. On a decent income it can easily become a negligible expense in the great scheme of things. So it is an accessible treatment the way I see it.
That's why I think it's not often the cost which is keeping people away from Botox.

On an observational level and pure curiosity on my part, I do wonder how or if Melania Trump uses Botox. I expect she has lots of treatments. But, interestingly, she definitely does look her age, albeit very well put together, but she doesn't look aged in a tired, collapsing manner. And although she has some lines on her forehead, they do not detract from the overall facial harmony. I suspect she would still look attractive (not younger) with more obvious lines or wrinkles.

£800 every six months not that high? Not in your world, maybe, but I think that would be out of the reach of most women, there’s no way a budget could be “tweaked” to afford what is often the average mortgage amount!

@Branster Thats my point about when interventions are good, they aren’t very obvious. It’s helpful to have the great face structure to start with, but being judicious with what you have done pays dividends.

For many women, £1500 a year is not out of reach when dc have left home.

Is everyone well off on here? Can’t be alone in thinking it’s a lot of money!

It's absolutely bonkers, but I'd keep my opinions to myself. As this thread shows, if someone does it, they think it's fine. So won't appreciate your views.

I’m 68 and love a bit of Botox thanks. My face, my choice and f all to do with anyone else. Why are other people (women) so judgey? It’s a subject that’s questioned in here far too often - mind your business and worry about something else instead

I love Botox. I have the money to spend and I think it makes me look fresher and awake. I only started a few years ago ago when I hit 50. I don’t care if other women feel sad for me. Spend your energy feeling sad for more worthy causes.

Have you gone a bit overboard with tie Botox because you seem Uber defensive! I'm sick of telling people that people are more concerned about people paying shite aestheticians to deform their faces! There are too many people out there with infected acid heavily scarred lips but you carry on being angry at the wrong people if it makes you feel better. Are you equally as bitter towards anyone that doesn't support the crazy amount of horrendous surgeries that Katie Price has had?

The aesthetics industry is so much more than the stereotype of ‘women being pressured into Botox.’ Yes, social pressure does exist, but for a lot of women it isn’t about fear or hatred of ageing; it’s choice, and simply wanting to look like the best, freshest version of themselves. As PPs have said.

I actually see aesthetics as part of women’s evolution, not their oppression. For many women it’s not about conformity, it’s about aspiration — feeling good, presenting themselves in a way that aligns with how they live. That’s not anti feminist.

Some women don’t care about appearance and live happily that way - brilliant. Others enjoy treatments, skincare, injectables, whatever. Also brilliant.

What is worrying is when women are said to be vain, insecure, stupid or victims of society. The extremes online don’t define the profession, and they definitely don’t define most women’s choices.

For me, supporting women, means supporting both choices - those who embrace ageing naturally and those who embrace aesthetics as part of their self care. Neither is more feminist than the other.

On its own, of course it is a lot of money. You are correct.

But in context, as a yearly spend, for something that someone prioritises because it matters to them, it probably works out at budgeting £100-£150/month.
So it is not wildly expensive, especially for a transformative procedure. It is within reach, as it were.

But even women who could easily afford this without having to budget, are not doing it.

Yes it is a popular treatment but a lot of women simply don't feel any kind of societal pressure or personal desire to have Botox and they still do look after themselves, still look presentable, don't offend anyone with their looks and they look perfectly normal pleasant and beautiful.
And of course a lot of women avoid such treatments because of valid health concerns.
And a lot of women spend money on others treatments. Which may or may not have their own health risks alongside the large variety in prices.

I'm with you to a point OP. If she had said 'it's my treat to myself and makes me feel better' it's very different to 'society expects it so I have to' - which makes it sound essential chore rather than a choice, which is a bit sad. It should be akin to getting a manicure - a nice thing to do which makes you feel better.

However, it wasn't really your place to question someone you don't know very well on their personal choices. Would you have quized her if she got her nails done, or her hair? Or a new outfit 'why did you buy that new coat, your other coat was fine?". And for the record I'm really not a fan of botox, but I would never feel I had the tight to question someone else on using it.

A lady in my pilates class bought it for her 21 yr olds Bday - seemed a little early. My old wrinkly face needs it!

Yes maybe. I was quizzing as I wanted to understand the why and the “society requires it”. Wasn’t clear why she even was discussing it… She was telling someone very loudly - who also just started. I think if you discuss something very loudly in an open plan office then it’s not unreasonable to ask!!

If she said, I really like the way my forehead looks I’d have been much more sympathetic and prob wouldn’t have wondered further.

I mean I took WLI before I started at the job. I get it that people do stuff as they like the way they look.

Of course feminists can have an opinion on whether the recent explosion in facial treatments, and societal pressures to have them, are good things How bizarre to try to tell women they’re not allowed to think about these things. I’d be horrified to think my daughter would feel pressure to modify her lovely face at a young age. The results are often so unnatural and dehumanising, and we know, from the many A-list celebrities who have made themselves almost unrecognisable, that having all the money in the world doesn’t guarantee good results.

She doesn't sound the brightest and obviously can't think for herself. Poor thing

Give her a wide berth.

Society does value a youthful appearance. I don't think Botox is required, but if that's what she wants to do, then whatever.

You were unreasonable for this:

I kept on saying I didn’t understand why it was required - clearly our employer wouldn’t care.

You asked her, which personally I wouldn't have done because it's none of my business, but once she gave you the reason it sounds like you tried to argue with her about her reasoning when, again, it's none of your business. She's entitled to get Botox if she wants, and her reasoning doesn't have to make sense to you.

@AppropriateAdult They really are not! You are looking at some people who choose extreme fillers. They are not representative of normal Botox users. I’d not listen to feminists who have a go at other women and are poorly informed.