Fiancé asking for a prenup

[Aquea]

Fiancé and I have had a relatively short relationship. We’ve only been together for two years. I basically had to make it very clear that I would not be having children without being married. Just for legal protection. Got a bit of push back on that in the early days but I did say that marriage was a non negotiable for me and if that wasn’t for fiance then he and I should part ways.

Anyway, now we are engaged. Fiancé has asked I sign a prenup. Fiancé has his own successful business. We’re not talking a champagne lifestyle but he is comfortable enough and owns several assets. His business is fairly large - employs 35 people. But the margins are small and the overheads are massive.

I don’t have an issue in some regards as I’m certainly not marrying for the sake of money alone. I plan to carry on working FT.

But the actual concept is extremely cynical and unromantic. It’s really made me feel shit. Like I can’t be trusted. I’m kind of sick of indirectly having to convince fiancé that I am good person to marry.

We plan to have children.

it just feels like it’s one thing after another. Ie having to explain my reasoning for wanting to get married and now a prenup. The path to being engaged just seems already so negotiated.

Funny how being financially sensible and talking of marriage as a contract and legal protection is always pushed here when it primarily impacts the woman.

God forbid a man does tries to be financially sensible too. Then it's all unromantic and cruel and selfish and self-obsessed.

Why should anyone be entitled to what anyone else has worked hard for before they met their spouse? And that goes for man or woman. In a happy marriage, of course everything is shared but in the sad but probable event of divorce, why should anyone be forced to give up what they have earned prior to having even met their spouse? If it were a woman, everyone would be telling her to protect herself; I've even seen posters advise women against marriage all completely if she is better off than her spouse.

It all seems very mercenary. The double standard would be infuriating if it weren't so laughable.

Do you live in the UK? If so, there is no such thing as an iron-clad pre-nup. They aren't worth a bean.

I think you really need to consider your expectations of marriage, logically. What was it about being married that you wanted before you have children and why. Then build those clauses into the prenup. If he doesn’t agree, then he is not the husband for you.

He is just forcing you both to put your cards on the table early. If, when you are both in love, you don't think the deal offered is good enough, then walk away.

I suspect his hand felt forced by your stance on children, and you have unearthered his real attitude towards his assets and building a future together and that is why you feel uneasy.

So negotiate. Think about how others have been screwed, and protect yourself. Get a solicitor of your choosing, not his. Negotiate in heavy penalties for cheating etc that massively swing in your favour. If you’re of good moral conduct and believe this will be a long term thing, it’s just a piece of paper. I see why he’s doing it, and frankly yes, he should. People’s jobs depend on him, he could have to sell the business to pay you out on a divorce, he built this before you, you likely didn’t contribute to it. Where I live now pre marital estate generally won’t be part what is available for a divorce settlement. Tbh it makes a lot of sense.

Absolutely this.

I think I'd let this one go @Aquea . He wants you to put yourself at risk by having children, but wants to remove the legal protections that marriage affords you.

Nothing wrong with a prenup or him protecting his business. He didn't keep you waiting with a proposal. Your friends probably have a very similar net worths, unlike you and your partner.

My pre-nup protected me more than my husband. I was likely to inherit more and I earned more than him. He didn't quibble about signing it. Luckily I have never had to rely on it.

Nothing wrong with OP declining marriage if he wants a prenuptial either!

Are you sure, I mean really positive, that this is the right man for you?

I don’t think that either of you have done anything wrong. You have very sensibly insisted on marriage to give yourself some legal protection in the event that the relationship breaks down. He’s trying to do the exact same thing you’ve done.

What would worry me would be your respective reactions to each other trying to protect yourselves. His reaction to your ultimatum is that he’ll agree to marry you but only because he doesn’t want to break up with you and this is the only way you’ll agree to children. After all, who wants to get married to someone they’ve had to persuade into it? Your reaction to his ultimatum (is it an ultimatum? Has he said whether the marriage is dependent on you signing?) is to be outraged that he doesn’t trust you not to try and take his stuff if you break up. Who wants to marry someone they’d have to hand over years of hard work to? You don’t seem to be aligned on finances at all.

On the one hand, I can see that marriage is a contract and it’s only sensible to negotiate assets as well, especially in light of the divorce rate. On the other hand, getting married and having a family is about building a life together. That’s combining finances so you’re not having to save to take maternity leave while he’s got thousands in his savings. That means that if his business goes through a rough patch, it’s your rough patch too. Otherwise what’s the point? You’ll both be entering into a marriage with one foot in and one foot out.

I think you should think very carefully about this. Not just the pre-nup, but the whole way you’ve organised your finances. Is this something you’ll be happy with further down the line? What are your plans for maternity leave? Who’ll be paying for swimming and comics and assorted activities, while you’re juggling work, child care and still paying your 50% into the holiday fund. A friend of mine has found herself in this position, with her husband grumbling that he doesn’t know what she does with her money, or why she’s always skint, and he doesn’t understand why she’s asking him to fill her car up when he never drives it (conveniently forgetting that she works from home, while juggling child care and that she only uses her car to run their children about). He never pays for ice creams at the park, or buys presents and cards for birthday parties or any other of a million different expenses. This is not a couple who will be growing old together.

There are so many things that it’s essential to be in agreement with when you’re getting married. It sounds like money, and even marriage itself, are things you need to be discussing before you talk about prenups and making vows about sharing all that you have.

Can I be a bit cheeky. If you like him and you love him unless you have some source of wealth, you are an unfortunate position. You're fighting now over the past his past. In your future, you would have access to his income. His funds and perhaps a life that you would not have had yourself. Why don't you focus on building that? Rather than seeing what's available to you from his past, you really can I mean, a prenup t drafted that supports what you want.He's just and quite rightfully, so not gonna give you the stuffy built before marriage.Why would he. Because you've insisted on marriage and now you seem to be unhappy that he's protecting himself.It just reads really badly.

What does he propose the prenup says?

I agree with the poster who pointed out that you want financial protection to have children, because you are going to carry the burden of that physically and likely career wise too. He wants financial protection for what he's built up. Both of those are sensible points of view.

The question is - how do you see your financial situation changing as you build a family? If he's proposing his business is ring fenced for him forever and the rest is family money that's very different from if he's proposing that the business becomes joint slowly over time and that he puts money aside for you each year you take out of work for the children with a clause that increases that amount if any of your children have special needs.

Are you just wanting him to want to marry you no matter what? Is that what you are upset about? And its snowballed into the pre nup situation where its become even less romantic.

You mention he wants you to get a solicitor. This already should tell you that he is not trying to screw you over. Any concerns about childcare costs etc can be part of the prenup (and as others have pointed out, if the prenup is too one sided it will be set aside completely anyway).

There was a woman, in America of course, who presented her fiance with a list of costs to her for pregnancy, childbirth and raising small children. It'll be online somewhere. He dropped the prenup idea!

Come on, we all know it's unfair because OP will be the one taking the career and financial hit of having children, and now her fiance wants to take away what rights she does have.

The fact you are having the conversation on these issues in these terms should ring alarm bells.

i would seriously consider having anything to do with him. He sounds dreadful. Imagine him telling you later down the line that he wants to separate. How he treats you now is a reflection of how he would treat you then. He doesn't care about you.

Crikey, who'd even want to stay in that sort of relationship after that! She must be desperate.

OP, I wouldn't sign your rights away. Women are already the ones financially compromised in marriage because our careers, earning potential, and pensions take a huge hit. I know you say you want to work FT, but you might feel differently when you have children, and what if your husband says that childcare is too expensive for 2 or 3 kids and it makes sense for you not to work? Then you don't have your career AND you've signed your rights away. And what if you have a disabled child and you cannot work?

Pre-nups are incredibly unfair to the poorer party - usually the woman. That's the entire reason why they don't carry much legal weight. But they do carry some weight.

This guy didn't want to marry in the first place, and now that you've insisted on it, he's trying to mitigate the commitment.

Honestly, I really think you can do better.

Excellent! Good for her! OP should do the same.

Right, so you have more money and the pre-nup protected you, the wealthier party, more than the poorer party. This is exactly why the OP shouldn't sign it. When the poorer party is the one taking the financial hit when having kids, and is also the sex who earns less, you can see how it's unfair.

He possibly felt the same way when you said marriage in nonnegotiable for you to have children. Marriage is a legal contract. He’s just laying his terms on the table, like you did. Take it or leave it. It’s up to you.

Quite.

I don't think you can negotiate in heavy penalties for cheating. It wouldn't stand up in court, and besides, she'd have to prove it first.

I think that you need a lawyer to read his proposal as it’s possible that he has come up with a reasonable way to protect his business and pay you a fair amount in the case of a split.

Self employment can be used to manipulate how much child maintenance is paid. CM is a percentage of income and he can make it look like he earns very little by taking little income from the business.

If for example, his suggestion is that he pays into a pension or savings account solely in your name to offset a claim in his business later, then it could be fair depending on the numbers.

I’ve read some shocking stories on here about attitudes towards money after kids. One husband was expecting a woman on maternity leave to pay 50% of bills next month when her maternity pay is dropping to zero. Find out what he really thinks about money by getting a lawyer to read his proposal.