To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

[Carla786]

I was reading Ben Judah's excellent book This Is London recently, about the relative integration of different immigrant groups in London. The focus was mainly on non-Western European immigrants, but there was some mention of the French immigrant population of Kensington.
I went to school there - my school was very near a lycee but I never thought much about it. I'm quite interested in France myself (my mum's a French teacher) and have several French friends (my school had a lot of European immigrants' children), I'm definitely not opposed to French people coming here. I'm just wondering if lycees are always helpful for integration. (Yes, I'm Gen Z- I know people will want to know why I'm on MN : I came for GC issues and stayed for the rest).

Generally we emphasise that it's important for immigrants to integrate with the existing population as much as possible. Lycees give French immigrants' children an education that follows the French curriculum, and I understand from what I've read are generally now composed of almost solely French children, though I understand the pupil cohort used to be more mixed in the past and maybe included more British children. If you grow up in a mainly French immigrant community and go to a lycee with mainly other French immigrant kids, how integrated will you be into the mainstream British population?
Generally when we talk about integration we focus on immigrant groups where sections are involved in crime or who mainly low-skilled. French immigrants are generally neither, so the lycee system isn't much remarked on. While I agree it's not a major concern, I still think it's worthy of comment.

We don't (I think) have lots of similar schools worldwide for the kids of Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc immigrants where they learn non-British curriculums. Yes, there are faith schools which sometimes overlap with ethnicity and have different curriculums (though I'd question that too- that topic's not for this thread, though).. I understand that lycees' educational standards are highly regarded & Brits or other immigrant nationalities sometimes send their kids there for that reason, esp since some run a parallel English curriculum(though as I said, the number of non-French pupils is much less now).

Still, I wonder how positive it is to have them if they're increasingly becoming nearly wholly French, and often used by families who are constantly on the move so that their kids can easily switch between lycees?

TLDR : AIBU to wonder if lycees may hinder integration of French immigrant kids if they now teach a French curriculum under the auspices of the French government to mainly French immigrant pupils who live generally in French immigrant-dominated areas? I'm definitely not saying they should be banned or anything, especially as UK state schools are generally bad at the moment..maybe there should be a push for a more mixed pupil cohort though?

Also a silly comment: being born outside the UK doesn't mean you're a migrant or expat!!
One of my friends was born in the Netherlands because her father happened to be working there at the time. Both parents are British. They stayed until she was 4 or 5 (one of her younger sisters was also born there) and then they came back to the UK and have stayed ever since. Her two children were born in the UK. Are you going to call her a migrant/expat?

Hi, sorry. Had a lot to answer, I will give a full answer to both your posts.

To answer the point first re Britons & languages : I agree Britons are less likely to speak a foreign language well than Europeans are. But saying that's just due to 'incompetence and isolationism' seems harsh. Foreign languages are not mandatory for GCSE, for one, and haven't been since 2004. This needs to change. Moreover, English being the lingua franca means that English will open doors for all Europeans, whereas Polish, say, would only open the door to Poland (which ofc is doing much better now but wasn't so in EU years). Ofc, this is a general rule. Obviously French, for one, could be used in Switzerland & Belgium, and German could be used in Switzerland & Austria etc, but generally European languages can be used in fewer places than English can, at least in Europe (most Spanish-speaking countries are elsewhere, for one)

International schools are found all over the world. They are usually, mostly, attended by children of people who are living in the country on a limited posting. For many people, that is preferable to sending the child to boarding school in the home country. Often part of the expat contract is help with fees.

The children will learn English as a foreign language, just like they would in France or any other French speaking territory they might be from.

I'm not sure why you are so hung up on the Lycée, which is just one of many or why you seem so concerned about instilling Britishness (what does that even mean? I attended school in the UK but can't recall being told about my Britishness) in foreign children who will be leaving.

I don't understand why you don't seem to understand.

I take your point. Is this the case for most people in London who are born outside the UK though? Maybe it is - an interesting point.

You can’t just choose to send your kid there, though. You have to be French or part-French - at least to get the free education, or for a very small fee. There are feeder primaries in London too. I know a few children who attended these before moving on to the lycee.

First, french people are not all in Kensington, I'm not, for sure, nor are my french friends. It's a very specific demographic that lives and goes to lycée there, more expats than immigrants. They might be in Hong-Kong or New-York next year.

Second, lycée is quite a tricky time, just before uni, so you don't want to mess up a kid's education at such a crucial time by changing the whole school system if you can avoid it. Kids might also not have the best school-ready english, plus they would be behind in british history and english language classes.
Once they have their bac en poche, they can go to uni here and catch-up with British culture and integrate properly.

Third, French culture and British culture are not very different. They won't experience a culture shock once they arrive in uni. Integrating in the UK as a french person is a very natural process, the hardest thing is to catch-up with 40 years of Eastenders, and to learn the lyrics of Don't look back in anger if you're invited to a wedding.

Yes, that was the problem with the 'International' school in the Hague. Supposedly, the children had Dutch lessons but you wouldn't have known it.

I'm sorry, but you're missing the point. I've repeatedly explained this to pps. My point is twofold : should there be as many expats as there currently are, in general (of course there'll always be some, that's fine). And for the students who aren't expats, but permanent immigrants,I don't understand why the parents would want them to have a French education with mostly French children when they've chosen to raise them in Britain.

Thank you, this is interesting. I know most French people aren't just in Kensington : to be fair most of my friends are because of where I went to school, 🤣 but as I said they're in mainstream not lycees. I agree lycees cater more to an expat crowd, surely.

As I've said, I definitely understand why mobile parents would want to use lycee to minimise disruption.

I agree that French and British culture have a lot of similarity. I wasn't really thinking in 'culture shock' terms, it was more subtle than that. I do think that if families are planning to move permanently for when their kids are toddlers, they should try and send them to mainstream rather than lycee. I think it's somewhat different if the lycee has a mixed cohort rather than mostly French (which apparently is getting less common now) but if you've settled in UK, why use a French educational system?

I think it also sticks out to me because while my friends with immigrant parents felt British, their parents often understandably felt more attached to birth country, but they valued British education strongly (Often a major reason for the move). I can see definite pluses in the lycee system, but it's interesting that French families who settle may still prefer, in contrast, for their kids to have a French education.

Sorry, extra point : your post seems to imply some expat kids then stay to go to British uni? The norm is to return to France, though?

That's sounds very poor re pastoral care. Why no sports or extracurriculars? Is it that in France these things are seen as stuff you organise yourself?

I think learning poetry is great but there should be balance with rote learning & other kinds imo.

I'm really not but ok.
Very few of them will be permanent immigrants so I don't really understand why you think that's a big problem.

I'm an immigrant from the UK, in Central Europe, all the permanent foreign people I know here, have their kids in the local school system. Those on limited contracts send their kids to international school.

The only reason I can think of for moving permanently but still putting your kid in international school is if they are older and won't have time to develop the language skills to pass in the local system eg moving when they are 15 or something.

That's sounds very poor re pastoral care. Why no sports or extracurriculars? Is it that in France these things are seen as stuff you organise yourself?

I think learning poetry is great but there should be balance with rote learning & other kinds imo.

In France (and in plenty of other countries) sport is something you do at a club, not in school beyond basic PE and maybe some athletics. The UK is kind of a halfway house on this, we do some sport in school, but if you’re actually any good at your sport you do it at a club.

Re your point about Britishness, I think this misses the point that culture isn't instilled overtly so much as it's the water you swim in. It's a bit like when people on here say that Britain hasn't got a culture or they don't know what makes British culture distinct. Obviously British schools don't overtly 'instil Britishness' exactly, they just are set up along British lines.

A lycee which uses the French government curriculum, follows laicite principles, focuses on rote learning, has less extracurriculars & sport etc , is clearly culturally different to a British one, because it's set up along French cultural lines. And that's fine. As I've said, I think poetry learning & secularism could be things, among others, that the British system could learn from.

Good point, I don't think that's necessarily bad, it's just different. It does depend, my school for one offered quite a few sports clubs which consumed some people's weekends (lacrosse etc) but yes, generally sporty people did outside clubs too.

I certainly think the French system is preferable to the situation in some (of course not most) US schools where the sports end up being funded better than the academics

On double standards on integration : it's complex. A lot of concerns about integration come when a minority is large and/or has some visible issue prevalent among its members (crime, misogyny, or less extreme stuff like enclaves which essentially operate as 'Little Wherever' rather than as parts of Britain). French expats & migrants tend to be high skilled & not have more visible problems, so less overt issues of integration are overlooked more.

I definitely think a lot of people who talk about 'integration' and 'British Values' really mean they don't want crime/unemployment issues. As pp pointed out, these people don't mind so much (esp more recently) if, say Chinese or Hindu/Sikh or Korean or in this case, French, people still feel more 'other nationality' than British & raise their kids that way, as long as they're hardworking, law-abiding and while connected to their immigrant community, don't have a huge community which isn't very integrated. The Ultra-Orthodox Hasidic cases I cited where teens struggled to speak English could be an exception to this, but I think that's different due to being such a tiny community. (Arguably genuine issues in this community show & other similar small & quiet ones show that people concerned about minority groups' issues often ignore when it doesn't affect the rest of the population).

To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

Those poor immigrant children! Doomed to remain in a ghetto like Kensington, denied the opportunity to better themselves.

I don't know where you got the idea that the French Lycee system is mainly or only for "French immigrant children". I have in-laws who were educated at the Lycée Charles de Gaulle in London. French dad, English mum. The kids have a huge advantage in that they can have further education in France or England as they tend to be fully bilingual. They can opt in secondary level to do either the British or French exams. As for "integration" do you actually know any French people? Because the idea they are foreign enough to have to "integrate" is laughable.

The problem with your framing of the question, to me, is this idea of not being 'integrated'- in what way would they not be integrated, if they are able to speak English, have pretty similar cultural values, similar lifestyles and fit in well with other international British and other nationality families living in Kensington or indeed anywhere in London. Many people are dual or triple culture anyway, so the scenario where one or both of the parents want to keep ties with the home language and some culture, whilst living happily in their current cultural home of Britain is pretty normal.

There isn't one way of being British, and I don't know what this intangible 'Britishness' is that they can't achieve by being an international wealthy French-English or other nationality family, they tend to speak multiple languages and be advantaged, so there are not problems of integration as such as they are usually adept code-switchers and they are not suffering any disadvantage economically or otherwise from not being 'integrated' in the more classic sense.

Being 'foreign' whilst living in Britain is not a lack of integration, it's a normal state of affairs for millions, the issue is where you get a divergence of cultural values, lifestyles, exclusion through language or a jarring internal identity that prevents you from getting on with life in your host country or even makes you hostile to it. That's not these children!

Interesting points, for the first one : an unclear point on this thread has been what the cohort actually is. Several pps say that most children there are French expats' kids mainly here temporarily. Others say it used to be a lot more mixed with Brits & other nationalities but has changed.

Current stats for the Lycee Charles de Gaulle at least do show that 82% of students are French nationals, though of course this doesn't necessarily equate to all being expats.

Don't be silly. Tbf, I've expanded on this a bit later on & I get if you haven't RTFT. Integration isn't just about obvious 'poverty/ghetto' issues. It's also less overt stuff. I've mentioned in earlier posts how friends & acquaintances at my school I felt had quite London-centric/internationalist etc views, & to some extent seemed disconnected from the wider country.

I think it's fair to say that an increasingly mobile, international etc population in the capital city is something worthy of discussion, and lycees are a small part of that in the scheme of things, but they're a window into wider issues. David Goodhart's 'Somewheres' vs 'Anywheres' distinction (ie. People who feel rooted in a particular place vs people who feel more international) & is controversial, but I think it pinpoints valid, not necessarily bad, issues : What does it mean when a capital city is extremely international, as London is? If the capital city is the centre of politics, media, business, etc, what does this mean for how these institutions will present localist/nationalist vs globalist/internationalist debates? What implications does this have for the current negative views other UK areas express about London, where not representative of Britain, and for divisions over Brexit and wider nationalist/populist etc debates that have continued?

Personally, I'd define myself as being between a Somewhere and an Anywhere. I can definitely relate to people who say they feel more like Londoners than anything else, and I can see myself being at home in a different capital city. Otoh I do think Goodhart made a valid point about the potential issues of Anywheres having too much influence over major institutions.

You sound a bit like Theresa May spouting on about citizens of nowhere op?

I don’t quite see where you are going with this thread tbh.

Britain probably has more international schools spread across the world than most.

Thousands of Brits live abroad and still return to what they consider “home” at Christmas or every summer.

Some people’s lives are transient, full stop! They are not all upper middle class either.

Forces families, children of engineers and musicians. Many come to work in a country for a while and move on. All grist to the inter-cultural mill as far as I am concerned.

Poor old Theresa May 🤣 She didn't phrase it well, but I do think she had a valid point. I personally think greater world cooperation is something laudable to strive for: imagine how many problems we could solve together if we didn't have idiots like Putin, Xi, etc standing in the way.

But otoh I do think more transient lifestyles can foster a internationalist/global perspective which doesn't see as much the ways people in the home country may not benefit unless they're in an international hub city like London. Eg. EU benefiting Londoners more than other areas (as shown by disparity in voting). There was an interesting thread yesterday I think on 'what makes you feel British?' Or was it 'DD won't feel British?' Anyway, there was one post saying, 'The idea of needing to belong to one place is outdated'. This is an example of the kind of internationalist view which seems to me to be a bit inured to other perspectives.

We need a scary film about murderous lychees! 🤣