To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

[Carla786]

I was reading Ben Judah's excellent book This Is London recently, about the relative integration of different immigrant groups in London. The focus was mainly on non-Western European immigrants, but there was some mention of the French immigrant population of Kensington.
I went to school there - my school was very near a lycee but I never thought much about it. I'm quite interested in France myself (my mum's a French teacher) and have several French friends (my school had a lot of European immigrants' children), I'm definitely not opposed to French people coming here. I'm just wondering if lycees are always helpful for integration. (Yes, I'm Gen Z- I know people will want to know why I'm on MN : I came for GC issues and stayed for the rest).

Generally we emphasise that it's important for immigrants to integrate with the existing population as much as possible. Lycees give French immigrants' children an education that follows the French curriculum, and I understand from what I've read are generally now composed of almost solely French children, though I understand the pupil cohort used to be more mixed in the past and maybe included more British children. If you grow up in a mainly French immigrant community and go to a lycee with mainly other French immigrant kids, how integrated will you be into the mainstream British population?
Generally when we talk about integration we focus on immigrant groups where sections are involved in crime or who mainly low-skilled. French immigrants are generally neither, so the lycee system isn't much remarked on. While I agree it's not a major concern, I still think it's worthy of comment.

We don't (I think) have lots of similar schools worldwide for the kids of Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc immigrants where they learn non-British curriculums. Yes, there are faith schools which sometimes overlap with ethnicity and have different curriculums (though I'd question that too- that topic's not for this thread, though).. I understand that lycees' educational standards are highly regarded & Brits or other immigrant nationalities sometimes send their kids there for that reason, esp since some run a parallel English curriculum(though as I said, the number of non-French pupils is much less now).

Still, I wonder how positive it is to have them if they're increasingly becoming nearly wholly French, and often used by families who are constantly on the move so that their kids can easily switch between lycees?

TLDR : AIBU to wonder if lycees may hinder integration of French immigrant kids if they now teach a French curriculum under the auspices of the French government to mainly French immigrant pupils who live generally in French immigrant-dominated areas? I'm definitely not saying they should be banned or anything, especially as UK state schools are generally bad at the moment..maybe there should be a push for a more mixed pupil cohort though?

A British colleague went to the lycee in London purely because her parents wanted her to speak fluent French

The students are often the children of diplomats or expats on short or medium term postings. This is a great way to ensure the children can slot back into school when tbey return to their home country, or when they move to their next overseas posting. A lot of these kids will not stay long term in the UK and therefore are not 'immigrants' in the usual sense.

There is also at least one German state subsidised German School in the London area. When I lived abroad, there were a high number of European national schools (state subsidised) as well as loads of foreign private schools following non-local curricula and not taught in the local language. Would you move your family to Beijing for a three year posting if your kids could only attend school through the medium of Chinese (which they would first need to learn to speak, read and write)? Unlikely!

How long they stay for was partly my point : I assume you mean that most are planning to settle here? Good if so.

I went to a very multicultural school myself, : mainly European immigrants with also some Asians & Americans. I suppose this kind of shaped my thoughts on the matter : otoh I love the mix of ethnicities & nationalities, otoh I did sometimes feel my friends lived in a sort of London expat bubble.
Maybe partly a function of economics more : I'm from a single parent family & was there on aid, whereas most of them were quite wealthy. I suppose I felt that most people only knew people like themselves and were sometimes quite naive about wider issues. Eg. People were knowledgeable on current events but found it very hard to understand why Brexit had happened. I wished we could have stayed in an improved EU, but I understood the reasons why people had felt it wasn't working, such as the fact that Europeans arguably were able to take much more advantage of job opportunities here than vice versa, and the issues of immigrant workers undercutting pay in lower-paid sectors. Obviously my friends' families directly benefited from the EU,& I'm glad they could,, so I didn't say anything, but I did sense that often people found it hard to see beyond multicultural London-centric ideas (& I say that as someone who loves multicultural London). Tbf though plenty of English people with no immigrant ancestry had similar views!

Another thing was the difference I observed between my friends & their parents' attitudes to the UK. Eg. Many parents didn't really see UK as their home, home was the country they returned to every holiday. Whereas my friends did see the UK as home. One of my closest friends is Russian, for instance, and very happy to live here, esp the way things are there now... But I reflected a few days ago that I wouldn't be happy if her parents hadn't had kids & had just bought houses etc for themselves, because they admittedly don't really feel much connection to the UK. I do think the ongoing trend of Europeans buying up London housing is negative, especially as housing is in crisis.

TLDR : In sum, what I'm getting at is that I don't think lycees are a net good if what they're mainly doing is encouraging transient immigrant workers to come who don't want to put down roots in the UK. If they're mainly being used by people who genuinely want to make their home here, that's positive. If so, I still think that it's better if they can have more non-French pupils rather than less, especially if most pupils live in French-dominated areas.

Yes, I know that they take non-French people too. As I said in previous post, number of non-French pupils has apparently declined recently. Eg. Charles de Gaulle, one of the biggest, has only 8%.

I wouldn't fret, OP. Is the French immigrant community so very large and visibly set apart, that it causes you such worry?
Gawd knows why they'd move en masse to GB in the first place (if we discount any sluggish Huguenots), but once arrived, I’m sure French schoolkids do very well among their peer groups in the wider community, even luring local scruffians to snigger snootily with them outside all those pâtisseries around the capital.

It seems you don't approve of expats generally? Do you have the same issue with British International schools in say Japan?

🤣 I'm a francophile as I said in OP. I've got no objection to French people coming here to settle, I know they're not drastically set apart.

It's more subtle than that : my own experience made me feel that the way a lot of my friends lived made it harder for them to understand perspectives outside London expat etc ones. I can imagine this could (which is not to say would) be exacerbated if they'd been going to a school which taught their ancestral countries' curriculum, with mainly pupils from their ancestral country etc

Moreover, I don't think transient Expats should be encouraged a huge amount. I understand & respect that diplomats & others must travel. However, I do think a too-large population of transient people is problematic, especially with the above housing issues. I understand from pps that this generally isn't the lyceé's main cohort, though?

Hmm....Japan are a very different country. For one thing, does Tokyo have a huge transient Expat population like London does? Does Japan in general have that? They're very strict on immigration, aren't they? (No, I'm not saying we should be like Japan, I think they're much too harsh on nationality issues)

Thanks. I think probably it is. I can definitely understand why diplomats would want to use lyceés.

Ha, good point. As in expats are thought of as wealthy people who've maybe come to work temporarily, while immigrants are seen as poorer and potentially bad for various reasons

I think--need to check- that expats are technically people who've come to work for a fixed time period with a company maybe, while immigrants want to become citizens? Of course immigrants might have a company arrangement too..

It' confusing as I remember for instance when I was reading Pamela Druckerman's book about parenting in Paris, she called herself an expat, even though I think she & her husband have stayed. I thunk originally they thought they wouldn't, maybe that's why.

I hope lychees aren't causing problems for French kids, definitely! 🤣 Never eaten one, do they taste strong?

Yabu. From experience, there are many non-French children in French lycees, and many from mixed families. They also teach English.

French immigrants are very good at learning English. I work with the public, and often need to get translators. I have not once come across a French person who couldn't speak excellent English.

If French translation is needed it is always for someone from a French colony.

I know many people who already do or plan to send their children to the Lycée in London - all are French families (or at least one parent is French). A few things that have come up here - the pupils attended LCDG are mainly French as the entry criteria became quite strict (though may get easier now the demand drops post Brexit/VAT on school fee): you usually have to attend one of the French or bilingual primaries dotted around London to get in. (so yes, the kids travel quite far in many cases to answer another query), and to attend those you need to meet specific criteria (top of the list being a parent being a French government employee seconded to England..). Famously Sarkozy wanted his child to attend and couldn’t get in as they didn’t meet the criteria!
But also, the French curriculum and approach to education is quite different. Just as many French people prefer French movies/holiday in France/drink French wine (!) they also want the French education system for their children, even if they happen to live in London, because they believe it’s the best system. The results from the school are certainly Impressive, though the very low levels of Oxbridge attendance causes consternation for some (usually non French native) families, but you could argue that that’s not an important marker in the French system perhaps…
so I don’t know if lack of integration is an issue, but I wanted to answer some of the pondered thoughts that had come up, as although my children don’t attend we had planned for them to do so until a change in circumstances made it impossible financially.

IMMIGRANT lychees.😀

My DH and his sister attended international school in Tokyo, and more recently I've known two families doing similarly in different parts of Japan. Mainly American kids there. The point is it's common for expats around the world to use international schools so they can slot back in at home when they return. Not sure why that should be different for French kids in the UK?

Yes, many immigrants are temporary residents because it is very had to get permanent residency there. Takes over ten years.

Yes exactly this. There are cities all over the world with high levels of expats ie workers who are likely to be temporary. They may stay, but their kids need consistency if they don’t. It’s also v common in Singapore, Shanghai, Dubai etc etc. It’s not the same as people moving fully to a country to start a permanent life there.

Yes, I've seen some anti-immigration types on SM say things like, 'We should be like Japan, where unless you are born Japanese they will never see you as Japanese.' I'm not sure whether this is always true (there are some very popular sumo wrestlers who were born elsewhere but then adopted Japan as their country) but anyway I don't see that as a good example at all. After all, it should be remembered that Japan up until the 1950s taught children that they were the superior Yamato race destined to rule the rest of Asia..., and arguably that history has never been fully worked through.

Thank you, that's interesting. I know they teach English, good to hear there are many non-French and mixed families.

I wasn't trying to imply that French students there wouldn't learn proper English : I was thinking of more subtle cultural integration/allegiance issues.

Why do you think people from French colonies tend to speak poorer French? Issues of poverty/Muslim integration etc?

DD1 got an excellent education from the American School in Paris. We then came back to London, she went to ACS and did the IB. International schools are very transient places; not many kids go all the way through. Great for holidays though, as there’s usually a friend in every country!

Re colony students : this is a sensitive issue, but did you ever feel that ethnic minority students were bullied because of their ethnicity?

There was a very sad article this year about a black student who published an article in the lycee Charles de Gaulle magazine about the racism she'd allegedly experienced there. Obviously this may not have been common - I suspect recent events may have stirred up bullies.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/lycee-francais-charles-de-gaulle-racism-lpzl7f8g5

Categorically, no.

Obviously, I can only speak for what I saw, and there are diverse experiences I am sure.

There was a lot of Anti-English sentiment, that was always obvious and apparent.

For those from colonies: not poorer French, but poorer English. (This applies for immigrants to the UK, not French school alumni in the UK)

I don’t think anyone’s questioning why Gen Z are on Mumsnet OP. The oldest of you are 29… well old enough to have children.

Ha, I'm actually 19 🤣 But yes ,that's true that a lot of Gen Zers are older.