To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

[Carla786]

I was reading Ben Judah's excellent book This Is London recently, about the relative integration of different immigrant groups in London. The focus was mainly on non-Western European immigrants, but there was some mention of the French immigrant population of Kensington.
I went to school there - my school was very near a lycee but I never thought much about it. I'm quite interested in France myself (my mum's a French teacher) and have several French friends (my school had a lot of European immigrants' children), I'm definitely not opposed to French people coming here. I'm just wondering if lycees are always helpful for integration. (Yes, I'm Gen Z- I know people will want to know why I'm on MN : I came for GC issues and stayed for the rest).

Generally we emphasise that it's important for immigrants to integrate with the existing population as much as possible. Lycees give French immigrants' children an education that follows the French curriculum, and I understand from what I've read are generally now composed of almost solely French children, though I understand the pupil cohort used to be more mixed in the past and maybe included more British children. If you grow up in a mainly French immigrant community and go to a lycee with mainly other French immigrant kids, how integrated will you be into the mainstream British population?
Generally when we talk about integration we focus on immigrant groups where sections are involved in crime or who mainly low-skilled. French immigrants are generally neither, so the lycee system isn't much remarked on. While I agree it's not a major concern, I still think it's worthy of comment.

We don't (I think) have lots of similar schools worldwide for the kids of Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc immigrants where they learn non-British curriculums. Yes, there are faith schools which sometimes overlap with ethnicity and have different curriculums (though I'd question that too- that topic's not for this thread, though).. I understand that lycees' educational standards are highly regarded & Brits or other immigrant nationalities sometimes send their kids there for that reason, esp since some run a parallel English curriculum(though as I said, the number of non-French pupils is much less now).

Still, I wonder how positive it is to have them if they're increasingly becoming nearly wholly French, and often used by families who are constantly on the move so that their kids can easily switch between lycees?

TLDR : AIBU to wonder if lycees may hinder integration of French immigrant kids if they now teach a French curriculum under the auspices of the French government to mainly French immigrant pupils who live generally in French immigrant-dominated areas? I'm definitely not saying they should be banned or anything, especially as UK state schools are generally bad at the moment..maybe there should be a push for a more mixed pupil cohort though?

Agree 100% with this. My DD, at ASP, left school at near bilingual level (and got a 7 in her French IB at higher level). Her friend who went to BSP spoke virtually no French at all.

How many are there in the uk? How much are the fees? I don’t know the answer to either but I suspect the answer to question 1 is very few and question 2, quite high. Most French people living in the uk send their children to ordinary state schools, I’ve known quite a few and everyone state educated, the only “French” education they used was a local Saturday school though in every case they dropped it fairly quickly because it clashed with other hobbies

I agree definitely that children deserve a peaceful education no matter who their parents, obviously they're not responsible for their parents' actions.

This is probably a silly question: how did the lycee offer more privacy for dictators' children etc than a mainstream school would? I know about the general principle of secularism : does this mean kids were banned from discussion of religion and politics so awkward views wouldn't come up?

I know how someone's parents can be unexpectedly eminent : my friends are all non-commital about their parents' jobs & not flashy, so it could be funny when eg. I saw an article in a paper about a jewellery designer for Cartier & then realised she had the same name as my friend's mum! 🤣

That's good: certainly all the French people I know go to mainstream schools & view Britain as their forever home.

I suppose it’s also to get a really good fluency in French which is harder when surrounded by English all the time even if both parents are French.

Being completely bilingual must open doors.

I always thought it was interesting that Ben Judah and his siblings went there - his mum has written a travel memoir about dragging them around Eastern Europe to follow their war reporter dad in the 80s/90s if you ever wanted insight into the Judah family life!

I wonder if in the past they had had bad experiences? I'm reading Angela Hui's memoir Takeaway now, there're been quite a few similar ones coming out recently. Her parents' takeaway was in a Welsh village in the 1990s and they experienced a lot of racism including violent attacks. So maybe past/familial experiences made them wary?

You say they're the only Chinese people in the village- so there's no immigrant community to mix with. I hope they have friends somewhere.

No.
DH is french and we have several friends whose children attend these schools. Everything at school is in French and everything in home is in French. As a result the children, who are born in the UK, speak very little English.

Oh I didn't know that, thanks! Will definitely read!

I really like Ben Judah, to me he hits the sweet spot of being progressive but realistic about culture clash potential etc I expect his childhood prepared him for the kind of reporting he had to do for This Is London and his Russian books. Sometimes I wish he was the foreign secretary rather than Lammy...

Do these families intend to return to France later? Otherwise, why raise children as if they are in France rather than Britain?

I didn't think you were anti-French at all 😊. I completely get your point and when living in London found the Lycée Francais crowd to be snobby and not interested in getting integrated so not my tribe. Also got heard stories of bullying / drug issues / no pastoral care but no direct experience so can't confirm if true.
Though I understand the reasons for parents who's kids are only here for a couple of years so no judgement!

@Carla786 No visible politics: political concepts taught thematically with ethics, logic, philosophy in later years. No religion: no visible signs of religion to be worn. No teaching of religion on the premises. Example: you could sign up for CofE instruction at nearby St Augustine's church, but the vicar had to meet us outside school grounds to escort us there.

Thank you 😊

That's a real shame about the Lycee people you met.. I had a browse of MN to see if there were threads about them & there were some mentions of lack of pastoral care. There was the sad article I linked earlier about the racism allegations this year, though tbf that could be a year group problem (we had had racism problems in my school in previous year groups I know, but my year & lower ones were fine afaik).
From what I've read, the school days are longer? I can see if teachers are stretched it could be harder to deal with bullying.

Where are these Chinese schools? All the ones I know of are Saturday language schools. All the chinese students I know of are in state or independent schools.

Usually they might want French universities. And yes, they may go back to France at some point. Eg, I know someone who was in the lycee till about age 13, then went to school in France, then came back to the U.K. at 16.

Ah right, thank you. That's interesting & I can definitely see benefits.

Re the 'no teaching religion' rule, presumably this means preaching/instruction? As in, there were still RS lessons that dealt with religions neutrally & factually?

You might find it interesting to do some research on nationality mix, both short term and permanent migrants in cities around the world.

I think you’ll find your assumptions aren’t supported.

Presumably the family pp knew attended a school in a different area, for some reason or other?

I agree, I doubt there are many Chinese schools. I suspect also our government might be more wary of a foreign government's having schools here if it were one like China.

You mean that other European capital cities have similar expat/immigrant numbers to the ones we have? Interesting...I will research

Look at expat numbers for places like Brussels, The Hague, Geneva……

Thank you, will definitely do this.

@Carla786 Don't recall a single class on religions at LFCDG. Learned from my kids when they did RS in their British school!

That sounds interesting : I don't suppose you might remember where you read it?

There were 3 Chinese & 1 half-Chinese girl at my school. All popular with active social lives : parents somewhat Tiger parents, but tbf that was most parents at my school 🤣. I agree probably the 80s-90s era could've affected integration, after all China was just coming out from being completely shut off from the world. Also as I mentioned in pp, probably anti-Chinese racism was higher then & they could've had bad experiences that made them wary?

Absolutely not.

Surely they learn English at school?!!

That does seem very odd for British children.