To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

[Carla786]

I was reading Ben Judah's excellent book This Is London recently, about the relative integration of different immigrant groups in London. The focus was mainly on non-Western European immigrants, but there was some mention of the French immigrant population of Kensington.
I went to school there - my school was very near a lycee but I never thought much about it. I'm quite interested in France myself (my mum's a French teacher) and have several French friends (my school had a lot of European immigrants' children), I'm definitely not opposed to French people coming here. I'm just wondering if lycees are always helpful for integration. (Yes, I'm Gen Z- I know people will want to know why I'm on MN : I came for GC issues and stayed for the rest).

Generally we emphasise that it's important for immigrants to integrate with the existing population as much as possible. Lycees give French immigrants' children an education that follows the French curriculum, and I understand from what I've read are generally now composed of almost solely French children, though I understand the pupil cohort used to be more mixed in the past and maybe included more British children. If you grow up in a mainly French immigrant community and go to a lycee with mainly other French immigrant kids, how integrated will you be into the mainstream British population?
Generally when we talk about integration we focus on immigrant groups where sections are involved in crime or who mainly low-skilled. French immigrants are generally neither, so the lycee system isn't much remarked on. While I agree it's not a major concern, I still think it's worthy of comment.

We don't (I think) have lots of similar schools worldwide for the kids of Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc immigrants where they learn non-British curriculums. Yes, there are faith schools which sometimes overlap with ethnicity and have different curriculums (though I'd question that too- that topic's not for this thread, though).. I understand that lycees' educational standards are highly regarded & Brits or other immigrant nationalities sometimes send their kids there for that reason, esp since some run a parallel English curriculum(though as I said, the number of non-French pupils is much less now).

Still, I wonder how positive it is to have them if they're increasingly becoming nearly wholly French, and often used by families who are constantly on the move so that their kids can easily switch between lycees?

TLDR : AIBU to wonder if lycees may hinder integration of French immigrant kids if they now teach a French curriculum under the auspices of the French government to mainly French immigrant pupils who live generally in French immigrant-dominated areas? I'm definitely not saying they should be banned or anything, especially as UK state schools are generally bad at the moment..maybe there should be a push for a more mixed pupil cohort though?

Still missing the point. The main point is about the effect on the British, or specifically London in this case, population of encouraging schools for people who are either transient Expat workers (fine, but should number be limited for reasons I outlined above?) or as you say 'wealthy Parisian elite' who wish to move to London permanently yet want their children to be educated according to a French system controlled by the French government (particularly if most other students are also French expat/immigrant).

It's 3.5k students out of 9 million London people, I doubt they will have much impact.

I think you’re missing the fundamental point of international schools in general.

They’ve got zero intent of long term integration. Theyre set up to provide microcosms, usually for families who have no long term intent to stay long term. Same as American schools.

That’s fine. Theres a place for long term immigration and there’s a place for temporary relocation.

I always remember an interview with Madonna who sent her two kids to the South Ken lycée. She said that she regretted it when they started conversing in French between them when she told them off. She doesn't speak French.

There is definitely a snobbery factor as the standard of education is so good. For French folk here for work for a few years, it makes total sense to be able to reintegrate back quickly into the home school system. Belgians too and Luxembourg citizens.

So presumably you would like to see the abolishment of all the British Schools of, American Schools of across the world? Or is just the French that you have a problem with?

Trying to work out if you’re a journalist or just trying to get your Uni research done. Or just anti-French.

Well..as I said above, I was thinking of two separate points, which I ought to have clarified better. One is whether London should have quite so many transient Expat workers (ofc some are needed) and the other is about French people who want to settle permanently here but still choose to give their children a French education (increasingly also one with mostly other French or French colony children, since the English population of lycees has apparently fallen a lot).

It's my understanding that a lot of the French kids at lycees have parents who do want to settle. Or is it mostly temporary expats then?

I'm not anti-French. I made it clear in my OP that I welcome French people who come here to live permanently. Questioning whether high numbers of expats is an unmitigated good, and why permanent immigrants wouldn't want to use mainstream British education (I understand wanting to go private, but clearly there are many good privates that aren't lycees!) is not the same as being anti-French.

Re international schools in general, I don't want any school to be abolished! If NYers or Tokyo residents or Berliners or whoever had similar questions about Expat numbers/British immigrants etc, they'd be well within their rights to ask them. My understanding is that London has a much higher number of expats & immigrants generally than many other cities, hence being dubbed 'world city' etc. Unless that's inaccurate?

I'd say a small minority of those attending international schools are posh families who want to give their kids a different type of education (ie not mainstream British). It's up to them, why give a damn? Another small minority will be dual-national families keen for their kids to master their other language (because otherwise let's face it, the minority language is almost impossible to truly get to native or near native level). And most of them will be transient expats and probably working in senior positions across various industries. I genuinely fail to see an issue or negative impact on London here - unless you're truly allergic to people speaking other languages and being in any way different, which would be quite depressing frankly.

Of course not a huge impact. But it's worth discussion, especially as it's part of a larger trend of London being very international. It's also not an aspect if immigration/integration that's discussed much & this thread has raised some interesting points.

It's a feature not a bug, OP. The parents are prioritising ease of returning to France over integration in UK, because they are largely bankers, diplomats etc here for a short period.

You don't have to be French. However for the junior part of the school (up to Y10) you need to be proficient in French and there is a mandatory language test- the British section only starts in Y10. So in practice everyone in the junior part has either spent significant time in a French-speaking country or has at least one parent with French mother tongue.

On ex pat v immigrant, I think traditionally ex pats were those living outside their own country (ex patria), and you wouldn't use the term for a permanent immigrant because they are living in their (new) country- to call them ex pats would be to suggest that they didn't belong. But these days I think people focus more on the fact that the group traditionally referred to as ex pats tend to be rich and white (not sure anyone has ever referred to eg indentured Indian labourers in Dubai as ex pats).

Quick google to ask the same questions about Paris: there are about 45 international schools in and around Paris. That's a good deal more than we have here.

Thank you, this is interesting. Must go now, but I'll do more replies later on.

As to Expat vs immigrant, I think it's also been a bit confused by some people who maybe move to a different country & are unclear/still deciding on whether to move back, and use expat as a descriptor. The previous example I gave about Pamela Druckerman felt like that, for one.

Interesting - so more international schools than we have? Surprised. Funny as generally Parisians are thought of as not being very keen on visitors (obviously that's a sterotype).

I'm French and live in the UK, my 28 daughter was born in London then we moved to Yorkshire. There are two types of French people in the UK: 'expats' here for a few years for work, and 'immigrants' like myself 😊 who settle here - lots of us but you won't see us in large groups / communities.
I would never have sent my daughter to the Lycée Français, apart from the cost (you can get grants) personally I didn't want her to grow up in a bubble, bother culturally and socio-economically.
There are lots of small Saturday schools for French-speaking kids around the UK, run by volunteers - I set one up in Leeds with two friends over 20 years ago and it's still running with over 100 kids attending! For us it was the right balance between integration and sharing our culture and language with our kids. My daughter hated going (lots of learning about grammar 😂) but is grateful now as she's fluent both speaking and writing.

I wonder why she sent them? Maybe bc she didn't know French herself but thought it would be interesting? I can imagine some celebrities might like the idea of a different/more private education system.

I get re expats wanting to slot back home on return easily.

I think it was just seen as chic to send your kids there back in the day. Probably still is. They're mid- late 20's now I guess.

The relatives that I mentioned who immigrated to the Netherlands were very comfortably off indeed. They simply didn't want to integrate. It might be the same with the French in Kensington - in their eyes, they're ex-pats with their eyes firmly set on returning to their home country?

Yes, presumably a lot are expats? Part of my post, as I said, was whether this kind of Expat should be encouraged in larger numbers (obviously some diplomats, corporations etc will always need to come, that's fine).

To be fair to OP, she has mentioned it's not just French schools.

Or maybe OP is Carla Bruni 😃

Wow, any room for adults with rusty university French?

Maybe because she had named her daughter Lourdes, she felt she had to.

I haven't read the thread but 2 things for me ( as an ex Lycée Français a l'étranger student).

French lycées wherever they are have the same curriculum so if parents move around a lot the children can follow without too much disruption to schooling.

University in France is still plus ou moins free - if you live in London ( as a french person) and want to avoid university costs in the UK by sending your child to a Lycée Français so it's easier for them to integrate into a french uni I reckon that's understandable

Look for a 'petite école française' in your area, some do offer lessons for non-bilingual students! 😊

You sound really nice : definitely Saturday school seems like a good balance, sounds like you started a very helpful thing for French immigrants.

I really hope my posts don't seem anti-French.. I've tried to make clear (maybe not successfully) that I welcome French people coming to settle. The issue imo is with people of any nationality who come to settle permanently but don't want to embrace British culture- especially if they're sneering at British people as in pp's experience of a lycee (obviously just one person's experience). I have several French as well as Belgian friends & they all were taught to strongly appreciate their heritage & language while attending mainstream schools

My grandfather was an immigrant (WW2 Polish refugee) and there is a strong Polish community in my area with Saturday schools etc, which my family used. So I definitely sympathise with wanting to pass on culture in this way.

I agree with you re cultural/socioeconomic bubble : pps have noted that some lycees have had a lot of different nationalities/people there for various reasons,but this seems to be increasingly rarer. And ofc a French curriculum/education will be very different to a British one.

I feel similarly about faith schools : I appreciate issues like diet, sometimes bullying etc & I know a lot have many non-faith pupils, but otoh I think it's better for children to get this kind of education in another way apart from school.

🤣 Non, malheuresement. I'm not Italian , nor that fashionable. Wouldn't want to be married to Sarkozy either!