To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

[Carla786]

I was reading Ben Judah's excellent book This Is London recently, about the relative integration of different immigrant groups in London. The focus was mainly on non-Western European immigrants, but there was some mention of the French immigrant population of Kensington.
I went to school there - my school was very near a lycee but I never thought much about it. I'm quite interested in France myself (my mum's a French teacher) and have several French friends (my school had a lot of European immigrants' children), I'm definitely not opposed to French people coming here. I'm just wondering if lycees are always helpful for integration. (Yes, I'm Gen Z- I know people will want to know why I'm on MN : I came for GC issues and stayed for the rest).

Generally we emphasise that it's important for immigrants to integrate with the existing population as much as possible. Lycees give French immigrants' children an education that follows the French curriculum, and I understand from what I've read are generally now composed of almost solely French children, though I understand the pupil cohort used to be more mixed in the past and maybe included more British children. If you grow up in a mainly French immigrant community and go to a lycee with mainly other French immigrant kids, how integrated will you be into the mainstream British population?
Generally when we talk about integration we focus on immigrant groups where sections are involved in crime or who mainly low-skilled. French immigrants are generally neither, so the lycee system isn't much remarked on. While I agree it's not a major concern, I still think it's worthy of comment.

We don't (I think) have lots of similar schools worldwide for the kids of Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc immigrants where they learn non-British curriculums. Yes, there are faith schools which sometimes overlap with ethnicity and have different curriculums (though I'd question that too- that topic's not for this thread, though).. I understand that lycees' educational standards are highly regarded & Brits or other immigrant nationalities sometimes send their kids there for that reason, esp since some run a parallel English curriculum(though as I said, the number of non-French pupils is much less now).

Still, I wonder how positive it is to have them if they're increasingly becoming nearly wholly French, and often used by families who are constantly on the move so that their kids can easily switch between lycees?

TLDR : AIBU to wonder if lycees may hinder integration of French immigrant kids if they now teach a French curriculum under the auspices of the French government to mainly French immigrant pupils who live generally in French immigrant-dominated areas? I'm definitely not saying they should be banned or anything, especially as UK state schools are generally bad at the moment..maybe there should be a push for a more mixed pupil cohort though?

That's good.

Why was there so much anti English sentiment though? Bit of a cheek when their parents presumably moved here because they felt England would give them advantages of some kind. I know a lot of French people have anti-English views to some extent, but if you feel that way, why live here?

Would you say these anti-English people often intended to live in France as adults maybe? Presumably they didn't consider themselves English, or not very much?

Ah right, I see, thanks for clarifying.

Probably in that case it would have been better for then to go to an English-speaking school to improve, unless they intend to live as adults in France...

Interesting, thank you. If most kids are French then as I said, I do think that's negative, especially if as pp said, anti-English sentiment is 'always obvious and apparent' at least in ones she's observed.

I don't think schools where children are instructed in a foreign government's curriculum, mainly mix with kids from the same immigrant background, and sneer at English people (if that is indeed as common as pp says) should be encouraged for any nationality. If there's a broader cohort, that's different...

I know a lot of French people prefer French ways, that's natural. Tbh I prefer some French stuff too! But if they believe French education is superior, why have they moved here to settle? If they're temporary expats I understand it more.

Sorry, if I can ask another : if Anti-English sentiment was "always obvious and apparent', how did this affect English pupils? I assume there weren't very many?

I spent 12 years in LFCDG. It's not just for transient diplomats' kids. In my time, 70 nationalities were represented. The banning of politics and religion in school is attractive to many non French parents. We had many kids fleeing persecution and discrimination (Bahai, Palestinian, Jewish but also the kids of African despots and Holocaust deniers like David Irving). It wasn't anti British, but there was racism, though snobbery a bigger issue. It's cheaper than many private schools. But not having a uniform means some kids go dripping in designer clothes, showing up those who don't.

Yes, like most big international cities, Japan has a lot of short-term expats working in fields like financial services and tech. In Tokyo there is a British School, an American School, a German school, a Lycée, and lots of other international schools which were set up to cater to the expat community, but also now attract bi-cultural families or Japanese families who don't like the local school system, or who used to live overseas.

Some of the schools also teach a bit of Japanese, but mostly they follow the curriculum of their home countries, so that when the expat posting ends, the children can reintegrate quickly.

Few of the short-term expats speak much Japanese, and it is almost impossible for foreign children arriving after the first couple of years of primary school to catch up and integrate into the Japanese school system because of the difficulty of the writing system. Children with one foreign and one Japanese parent are more likely to be in the Japanese system, as they are usually permanent residents.

I have a relative whose child attended an "International" nursery and school in the Netherlands.

The family only associated with English speakers and after 7 yrs the child returned to England able to speak only English - apart from "Hello, my name is - and I live in - ."

The child's grandparent had suggested that a Dutch school would be a better option, but the parents were indignant at the suggestion.

Very interesting! Disturbing re despots & deniers, but otoh the banning of politics and religion does have positives. Sounds good so many nationalities were represented. As pp said though, and I've heard elsewhere, this has changed a lot in recent years. Maybe also has increased anti-British sentiment?

Sad to hear re racism & snobbery. I guess snobbery is an issue potentially at any school with a lot of very well-off people... My school also had a no uniform policy & we did get some show-offs but snobbery wasn't a huge issue. I wonder if gender mix also effects pressure to show off clothes? My school was all-girls.

Re racism, another thread I saw mentioned that the singer Mika has said he was homeschooled after being badly bullied there in the early 1990s. Not sure whether that was more due to his dyslexia than his Lebanese heritage though.

The snobbery is intellectual too. Mika more likely bullied for that. Lebanese were mostly high status and rich. BTW, the kids of despots and Holocaust also deserve an education in peaceful anonymity - that's what the Lycée offered then. I had zero clue until I left who x, y, z's parents were. Only when you go to a party in Eton Square do you realize the birthday girl's father isn't just Greek but a shipping magnate iykwim.

Different but related I remember a long form article I read years ago suggesting similar about the integration of the Chinese community.

it made me think about the multi generational family who own our local Chinese takeaway- they’ve been there over 30 years, with family members similar ages to myself, my siblings and children/ nieces. Yet none of them attended our local schools.

this is obviously quite a 80s/90s/00s view of Chinese integration and I would imagine it’s changed now China has “opened up” slightly more and there is more migration but interesting none the less.

What schools do they go to?

I’ve got no idea, that was my point. A large “high profile” family in a village- yet no idea what their lives were like outside of the takeaway at all. I can’t recall seeing them anywhere else, not even the local shops or supermarket for all those years.

thats what the article was about, the quiet non integration of the Chinese community, as the OP was suggesting for the French community.

the French immigrant population of Kensington.

Surely anyone whose parents can afford to immigrate and afford to live in Kensington doesn’t need help integrating? They will have resources to smooth any rough edges.

Expats are often payed by the company or government that employs them back in their home country. They tend to move country very frequently as the contracts/placements tend to be 2-3 years. If you work for your government you are encouraged not to integrate too much as they want your loyalty to remain with your home country for security reasons. You usually have accommodation, health insurance and school fees with your job (why the French gov objected to VAT on school fees when Uk expats over there don’t have to pay it). Income tax is often paid in the country you are employed by, not the one you are living in. People of all races are called expats in that type of expat world. You also get retirees who are expats plus other people who move around countries. They generally want to retain their citizenship. They are usually called expats for economic reasons rather than racial ones. The lines are more blurred between expats and immigrants in those circumstances.

Actually, at the BSP they learn very little French. My friend sent her French-speaking child there, since they need to be within the international system, and she was shocked at how little French they learn. You’ve got kids there who leave with very little. A lot of international schools in Paris have a much higher ratio of French spoken or taught in class. BSP is great if just there a couple of years then moving on.

DH went to LFCDGand @Leakylady summed it up well. Very typical- French parent felt French schools were better and crucially it was cheaper than the private schools near where he lived in the outskirts of London.

He always said it was an odd expat culture but not exclusively French- lots of ex French colonies or Middle Eastern diplomats kids. Very snobby and very rich!

I wouldn’t worry about the French teenagers of London integrating.

Agree. Also it’s très cher! 😅

More Brits are becoming interested in the Bac qualification, so will slowly start taking up Lycée places, I think.

First of all, there are other similar schools in London - the German School, for example, caters specifically to German kids of expat families.
I think you are missing the point entirely: those schools are the exact equivalent of international schools that cater to English-speaking expat kids who are able to do their A-levels in Dubai or Singapore. There are families who travel for work and they don't want to disrupt the kids' education because they know that in 2-3 years they'll be back home. Integrating is precisely NOT the aim.
That's fundamentally the difference between expats and immigrants and you are conflating the two. Expats are temporary residents here for a specific reason, and immigrants are here to make a new life.

I'd assume that these schools are mainly for the children of expats who might only be in the UK for a few years and are seeking to minimise disruption on their children's education. If you have a 14-year-old child who has been educated their whole life in the French system then placing them in a British state school with a different language, different curriculum and different ethos is likely to be very disruptive and difficult for that child.

There are a huge number of international schools. Where I live now there is a German, Swiss, French and Italian school, at least four or five British schools and a similar number of American ones and also a Finnish one that teaches in English (and these are just the ones I know of without looking them up).
Where I used to live there was a Japanese and a Russian school. Many of these are government subsidised.
Aside from the German schools, these schools are relatively expensive so are used predominantly by people living temporarily or who move when their children are teens and can’t be expected to keep up with a demanding curriculum while learning a brand new language.
It is true that society’s view on who is and isn’t integrating and which home languages are prestigious and which aren’t is driven by racism/xenophobia rather than anything else, but I’m not sure these schools are the key piece in that puzzle.

There are other nationality schools in London, eg, there’s a German school and a Japanese school, each following their own national curriculum. My DD, British, attending a comprehensive, had several friends at the French lycee - this was because of a shared hobby they had.

I can add that those who go to these international or European schools often have no particularly strong affiliation to any country and will never be considered local anywhere. I don't see it as particularly negative for society as a whole, as the number of such people is small. However on an individual level, it takes some soul searching to find a community/sense of belonging.

You're missing my point. I'm not suggesting that the kids are suffering as such from not integrating. I agree with pps that most surely speak English well and have English friends.

It's more subtle than that : I'd argue that lycees from what I've read (obviously I may have completely the wrong impression) arguably often facilitate their students' existence in a London-centric Expat bubble. I experienced a version of this myself at my school (I loved it but this was a flaw. Arguably tho it was also due to very high costs though some, like me, were on financial aid).
I can imagine it would be far more pronounced if lycees are becoming increasingly French-majority. I'd also question how far a French curriculum controlled by a French government will instil a sense of Britishness.
I get that some families are transient and understandably want a lycee as they plan to return to France eventually. However, I'd also ask whether this should be encouraged in such high numbers. Obviously diplomats, corporate placements will always need to come and they should be welcomed. But I'd question whether London's population should contain more transient Expat workers than necessary, especially with current housing etc issues.

I must admit, I'm struggling to work up much sympathy for Parisian elite who are the majority at the school.