What are Hamas playing at?

[elprup]

It’s deeply worrying that Hamas haven’t returned all the dead hostages as agreed. I’ve seen comments saying it’s an impossible task given how Gaza has been reduced to rubble. But if that’s the case, they would have known they had lost the bodies. So why did they agree to return them if they knew they weren’t able to do so?

I agree.

I think it says a lot about someone’s views that they would use that site to try to back up their opinion.

Haaretz, ultra left wing Israeli and funded by left wing European NGOs, is only marginally better.

You've deleted posts with links to Electronic Intifada before. Mumsnet moderation is nothing if not inconsistent.

And it's not just a matter of political opinion. IE have posted articles synpathetic to Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisarion. And Asa Winstanley's latest article is about how the rapes that happened on October 7th were all fabricated.

@HopeMumsnet i’ll admit, my language was poor. But don’t try to tell me that articles from a website named after a terrorist campaign is acceptable.

The moderator has revealed her own unconscious bias methinks.

If you were living under siege, what would you do? The years of total horror that the Palestinians have been living under is beyond anything we can imagine in our privileged world.

I probably wouldn’t go out raping and dragging mutilated bodies amongst cheering crowds. But that’s just me.

an "antisemitic slur" - I'm literally showing you that the former Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant has admitted to it!!

I do not condone the horrors that happened but tell me what you would do?

What would you do?

answer my question or are you just going to ignore that because you cannot answer it?

I’m not going on that website as I don’t want to sully my browser history with terrorist supporting websites.

@Cheeks4970 "If you were living under siege, what would you do? The years of total horror that the Palestinians have been living under is beyond anything we can imagine in our privileged world."

What years are you talking about?

For clarity (and this has been flagged up before) Gaza was controlled by Egypt from1948 - 1967 Under Egyptian military control, Palestinian refugees in Gaza were stuck, homeless and stateless because Egypt didn’t consider them to be citizens.

They were controlled by Israel from 1967 - 1993 Israel also signed a peace treaty with Egypt at Camp David — a pact negotiated by U.S. President Jimmy Carter.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi has referenced this 40-year old treaty when he declined to permit Palestinian refugees from Gaza into Egypt, saying the potential entrance of militants into Egypt would threaten longstanding peace between Israel and Egypt

Israel pulled out in 1993. There was no 'occupation' after that date until Hamas took control..

Jordan illegally annexed the West bank in 1950 and finally ceded control in 1988. It is now run by the Palestinian Authority.

So what is this seige you are talking about?

From Oxfam:

2018 marks 51 years since the occupation of the Palestinian Territory and 11 years of the Gaza blockade. Both the occupation and the blockade affect every aspect of life for Palestinians – they dictate where they can live and study, and whom they can marry.
The blockade has devastated Gaza’s economy, caused widespread destruction and left most people largely cut off from the outside world. Today, one million Palestinians in Gaza don't have enough food to feed their families, despite receiving food assistance or other forms of support.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/timeline-humanitarian-impact-gaza-blockade

What? I asked a reasonable question.

"no one owes you anything" - who asked you?

You still haven't answered the question.

Amnesty International

https://www.amnesty.org/en/petition/lift-the-blockade-on-gaza-and-stop-the-genocide/

Some creative maths here, it seems.

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 1993 and elections were held about that time.
Hamas took control by murdering most of the opposition.

Then they started firing rockets at Israel.

Israel has the right to defend itself and stop the smuggling of arms into Gaza. Egypt also supported this and shut the Rafah crossing.

The question to be asked in what are Hamas - the self-styled governemnet in Gaza doing to help their citizens?

Zilch.

What would I do if I lived in Gaza? Well, I’d want nothing to do with Hamas for a start. I would push for dialogue with Israel and seek a democratic government for an independent Gaza. But to me, it looks like Hamas that is standing in the way of that, not Israel.

academic.oup.com/jcsl/article/30/1/103/7943620

Although from 1967 until 2005, it was clear that Gaza was effectively occupied by the Israeli army, in 2005 Israel decided to withdraw its forces therefrom. This so-called disengagement did not necessarily constitute an end to the occupation, nor did it signal an abrupt end to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, at least as far as the Gaza Strip was concerned.19 The disengagement plan, announced in April 2004, stipulated that Israel intended to evacuate from Gazan settlements and that no Israeli military or civilian settlers would subsequently remain in Gaza.20 The Israeli government went on to justify its intended disengagement by suggesting that ‘there [was] no reliable Palestinian partner with which Israel can make progress in a bilateral peace process’.21In September 2005, on the eve of the disengagement, Israeli military forces departed Gaza, leaving 21 settlements in Gaza and four settlements in the West Bank.22 The aftermath of the Israeli disengagement clearly illustrated the former occupant’s intentions. Like all occupying powers, the human rights (HR) obligations inherent in the occupation, made it financially, politically, and morally costly for Israel. It was no accident that the Israeli government lost little time in declaring that in the absence of Israeli troops on the ground in Gaza, it no longer bore the HR obligations incumbent on occupiers.23 Nonetheless, the absence of Israeli troops on the territory of Gaza was a mere technicality, since the Israeli military redeployed outside of Gaza while maintaining troops on the external land border and reserving exclusive control over Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters.24 This was followed by an official declaration stipulating that Gaza was in fact a ‘hostile territory’ and Israel proceeded to impose a blockade against it.25

You haven't answered any of mine so that's a bit rich.

Hamas came to power with the express intention of anihilating the State of Israel.
Their original Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and described its members to be god-fearing Muslims raising the banner of Jihad (armed struggle) in "the face of the oppressors". The 1988 charter defines the struggle to be against the Jews and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in all of former Mandatory Palestine, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

And you blame Israel for a blockade? Really?

Maybe if Hamas hadn't started firing rockets into Israel then there would have been no need for defensive action?

Palestinian victim mentality as usual.

Maybe if you adjusted your tone and you might get a reply ?

I don’t for one second think Hamas should be anywhere near power, I think they have terrorised Palestinians and Israelis for decades they are truly evil, however Israel aren’t innocent in this, they commit atrocities also, however much you want to deny it, both are terrible terrible “leaders”, and who suffers, innocent Palestinians and Israelis!

Palestinians are brought up with Israel as the enemy, they live in an open air prison, homes and land get taken in the west bank, they get arrested with no fair trials. Their homes have been destroyed, their children dead. They have no chance to prosper, so of course they hate Israel and want to fight back!

Israelis are brought up hating Palestinians, they have rockets launched at them and terrorist attacks committed in their communities, and obviously October 7th so of course they hate Palestine and want to fight back!

Hamas need to be gone, jailed for life, Netanyahu needs to be gone and also jailed for life. When both states get some genuine leadership who have good intentions then there will be peace, however sadly I don’t think the day will ever come.

Can you admit both states are at fault?