To think it is outrageous to ban women and girls over 13 from a fun run?

[Lex345]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1kwk1204jno

I just caught this on the news-the article isn't clear on the justification for this-but this isn't OK is it?

No idea but it isn't the point in this case in particular.. Firstly, it's the wording about how inclusive it's supposed to be (noting that it's asking for all abilities, ages and anyone to join - so presumably anyone from any religion could also join) but then goes onto say that actually it's only for men and girls under the age of 12... There would be much less of an issue if a) it was advertised as just men's / boy's only - why can a 45 year old man run with a 10 year old girl, but a 14 year old girl or a 45 year old woman can't run? B) they were also at least offering a sign up for a women & girl's only race on another day.

Nothing wrong with splitting races by gender - lots of UK charities do this, but they generally offer an alternative for the other gender, it's generally designed for a men/women specific issue (like men's mental health charity / women's cancer charity for example) or there's other legitimate reasons - this is an event that doesn't appear to cover any of them! The organisers are also ignoring those who ask why.

Whereas this was to raise funds for various charity groups but they're deliberately excluding girls of a certain age & women. As I'd said in a previous post, my husband is a Muslim himself and even he was completely baffled by it (especially for this to occur here in the UK!) and thought it was totally wrong.

@JHound you seem to think it is entirely acceptable for a family event to exclude females aged over 12 but include younger females. Why is that?

I said in my first post on this thread.

@JHound you didn’t. Would you mind explaining why you think it is acceptable to specifically discriminate between girls under the age of 12 versus girls over the age of 12 being able to participate in a “family” event that is open to everyone else?

There has to be a specific reason to justify (a). There is no combination that could ever justify (b).

allowing affinity grouping is complicated. We want people to be able to freely associate, but we all know that freedom can be abused and used as a means to control. We don’t want a return to men’s clubs where government decisions and major business deals were made without any input from women.

.

It’s very very worrying that this discrimination is happening in our country. It will be a slow creep until it’s normalised to discriminate women. Definitely. It’s happening.

I, and I imagine, plenty of women who post on the FWR board (which is where this issue was first raised), are absolutely supportive of either sex having single sex spaces. This could be for reasons of safeguarding, privacy, dignity, fairness etc. but there has to be a reasonable explanation for needing them that isn’t discriminatory for egregious reasons simply to treat another human being as less than others. Because that is morally wrong. So, the answer as to whether some people in this scenario are being treated as less than others seems to be obvious due to the fact that girls up to the age of 12 are allowed, but those over the age 12, and women, are not.

What do you think it is about only the over 12 females that justifies their exclusion?

I did.

If you cannot be bothered to read the thread,
that’s on you.

@JHound I have read it - where did you explain precisely why you’re happy to support the age of 12 years as a cut off for allowing / not allowing girls to compete in a family event? None of your other examples are analogous to this.

People justifying this are not helping Muslim communities. Much better for this mosque to adapt to UK in the 21st century than to let its most conservative members call the shots. It just turns people against them.

All they need to do is have 2 runs, one for men and boys and the other for and women and girls. Simples!

Well, precisely. But us women must know our place hey - and kept away from the male gaze, just in case we accidentally incite lewd thoughts in our jogging bottoms and baggy t-shirt. Can't be having that can we now?

That posters first post seems to be this one:

JHound · Yesterday 14:36

Shrugs.
If we can have charities that focus on girls, there can be DV hotlines for black and South Asian women and Stormzy can have a scholarship scheme just for black students who wish to attend Oxbridge I really cannot care about this.
I don’t know why we need 75 threads on the topic though

They seem incapable of understanding the basic concept of single sex (or other protected characteristic) exemptions, and the reason for their existence, and that this event did not fall in to that category. It is not the same. Like comparing apples and oranges. I’m not sure any amount of explaining can help tbh. Presumably that’s why they wanted the ‘moral’ argument instead of the legal one. I’ve provided it, hopefully it’s easier to understand.

Though I am unsure why someone would be so desperate to separate the moral from the legal, unless they think discrimination laws that safeguard human dignity are in some way immoral.
Imagine being so totally unbothered by discrimination that you not only post about it, with bolded ‘shrug’ comments, but you’re also not even embarrassed to say it out loud. Still I suppose that is indicative of the prevailing attitudes in this country at the moment.

@TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers yep, that’s the first one. I find the shrugging of the shoulders at discrimination over girls’ participation in a family event (which is otherwise open to all) hinging on whether she is older than 12 deeply disturbing.

if we slightly changed the example of unlawful discrimination of a protected characteristic to say, only Christian girls and women can participate but all men and boys from any faith are welcome, the poster in question would have a different take? I suspect so. Would that be morally ok?

Muslim women are just as important as all other women.

Some people are utterly brain washed on here.

Just because it's about a muslim run doesn't mean that people who aren't muslim cannot be concerned.

You should be concerned if you weren't so brain washed by religion, that this should be something all of us women should be concerned about.

No matter your race, gender, sex or sexuality.

We should be sticking up for women all of us.

We should be concerned about discrimination. We should be concerned about sexual segregation.

Women haven't had rights for that long. And we are a free country where women can do what they like. I am grateful every day I do have to live like the poor women in Iran of Afghanistan.

We should be looking out for each other and we should be defending women no matter what we believe.

Outwardly I'm respectful of people's beliefs but what has religion ever done for women please?

I aren't here for a theology debate. But I will stand by the equality laws of THIS COUNTRY.

So we can’t speak freely about muslim women?

Just shows how very them and us your attitude is.

Don't we all live in the same place, the same country?

That means we are humans living in the same place at the same time.

The same laws apply to all of us, religious or not.

Instead of just picking out white women, which is just being racist really isn't it as you have absolutely no idea of the race or Background of the people posting, why not understand as women we should stick together.

For what it's worth, I would forever condemn people who would dare attack a woman and pull her clothes and head garments off. I am anti violence in every way shape or form. But you sound very prejudice in your judgements of so called white women.

And you're very clear our communities are very separate so am pretty clear where your politics and views on certain races are.

But it's okay to discriminate against someone white, it's almost fashionable these days isn't it.

Just realise you silly person, that misogyny affects us all!

And if the men whoever they maybe get away with it, then it will spread and our hard won rights will just be pushed to the side.

I will let no man tell me where I can and can't go.

I was wondering about why these multiple threads on a single news story were happening, not making any complaint about them. 🙄

The faux innocence really doesn't wash.

You are conflating Religion and culture. Unfortunately, the behaviour of a lot of Muslims gives Islam a bad name.

Islam doesn’t dictate that men and women must be segregated in public parks, anymore than it says that women must wear a burka or a hijab. On the contrary, Islam instructs men to lower their gaze and control their behaviour.

The organisers of the run are wrong for imposing their own made up version of Islam on everybody else.

Segregation of the sexes does seem to be fairly mainstream in Islam.

Isn’t there a provison that women have to draw veils around them
so that they do not seduce men?

And that this has to be done from
quite a young age?

Given at according to their holy book, their founder married a six year old and consummated the “marriage” when she was nine (ie had sex with a nine year old girl) the emphasis in Islam seems to be that it‘s the women’s (or little girls’) fault for men being unable to control themselves.

"Don't we all live in the same place, the same country?"

No, the person you're replying to mentioned earlier on in the thread that she doesn't live in this country.

My irony klaxon just exploded.

Anyway, @JHound I’ve provided the moral argument you requested. Any further comment from you?

Sorry to quote myself, but I do love when pp demand a particular answer (presumably because they think it can’t be provided), they get the answer, they don’t like it and so never return to the thread or steadfastly pretend they didn’t notice it, there’s probably a word for that…

I understand why women want women only clubs. But why can't men have men only running clubs?