Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

[Raisinmeup]

I see a lot online about anti-vaxxers and I’m trying to understand where they’re coming from, so this is a genuine question, not rage bait.

My understanding is that some parents choose not to vaccinate their children because they believe vaccines cause harmful side effects, or they just don’t trust the government and big pharma in general.

But what’s the alternative? If everyone stopped vaccinating, wouldn’t we start seeing diseases like polio coming back? That would mean more infant deaths and lifelong disabilities. It just doesn’t seem like a rational trade off?

From what I’ve seen, there seems to be a belief that immune systems can deal with these illnesses naturally, but I wonder if part of that belief comes from the fact that parents of today haven’t actually seen what a world without vaccines looks like. We’ve grown up in a time where infant death from preventable diseases is almost unheard of, so maybe it’s easy to forget how serious these infections really are.

And lastly, if you haven’t vaccinated your child and they then catch one of these illnesses, do you not end up turning to the same big pharma for the medicine or treatment anyway?

If more people do the same are you not genuinely concerned that diseases considered widely eradicated will make a comeback? My concern is that this effects everyone, when diseases circulate widely again then they mutate and vaccinated people will not be safe from them either. We would potentially be looking at decades of impact again.

I wish the HPV jab had been around when I was a kid. Cervical cancer rates are falling off a cliff.

I was on a covid ward in 2021. I was vaccinated but have a weak immune system. I was very ill. On my ward the other four very poorly patients were all unvaccinated. How do I know? The privacy of hospital curtains, it was the first question asked by every doctor. The young woman (about 35) next to me had been in a month and was deteriorating. They took her off to ICU one night to be ventilated and I never saw her again. I hope she recovered.

Can you provide links to these highly qualified people who are anti vax, assuming they are peer reviewed and published and not TikTok

Your example is just one among many, as is those who I know who insist their child’s injuries post-vaccine were more longlasting.

But why am I going to say ‘okay I'll put my child at this risk’ for jabs, more than I'm going to say ‘okay I'll put my child at this risk’ when it's those saying ‘my child died from measles’

Well, firstly that second group don’t seem to exist.

My child is never going to be at risk of a vaccine injury. My children is at very minimal risk from complications from measles. By the time she is 10 she'll be at even lower risk from things like meningitis. Etc etc and so on and so forth. I have a teenager who never got sick and had no routine illness, yet was not vaccinated.

My children's health is my priority. They seem healthier and more resilient than their vaccinated peers, and that's the data I go on.

I think part of the problem is the black and white thinking and the refusal to discuss/listen by many who advocate for vaccine uptake plus the exaggeration wrt impact of some of the diseases by vaccine zealots.

Vaccines can cause harm, as can the diseases vaccinated against. It is important to do a risk benefit analysis when deciding whether to get vaccinated. For example, I never got the flu vaccine until last year as I was at low risk and it's not terribly effective. I am now getting the flu vaccine as I'm on immuno-suppressants for an auto-immune disease triggered by covid. I have a friend who has an auto-immune disease triggered by the covid vaccine so she is reluctant to take any more vaccines. When swine flu was a thing, I didn't get the vaccine as I felt it was rushed and I was not at high risk of harm. People I know rushed out to get it because they believed the "vaccines are good" narrative and one of them now has a long term illness triggered by the vaccine.

I didn't have the MMR as it wasn't around at the time. I, and most of the children around me, had measles. It was crap but nobody I know had any severe after effects. Well nourished and healthy children are unlikely to suffer severe aftereffects from the measles so the narrative promoted by some that children were dropping dead all round the place is nonsense. Yes, in previous generations when children were malnourished and less healthy, severe impacts were more likely.

I did not have my eldest dc vaccinated until there was a local outbreak of measles. He was 4. He hadn't been vaccinated because he was born around the time Wakefield's "research" was published in one of the most reputable medical journals and I, like many others, was not willing to take the chance.

Generally, I am pro taking a considered approach to vaccines. I believe herd immunity is important but that the individual, in conjunction with their medical advisors, needs to take a considered approach as to whether it is the right course of action for them. Neither approach, taking vaccines/not taking vaccines is risk free and I think it's important to recognise that and help people to make the right decision.

There are lots of qualified doctors who are anti vaccine. Do you think that appearing on tiktok can change their qualification or education status?

I don’t think that polio particularly cares whether your immune system is good or bad. It’s very contagious transmitted via water droplets from mouth/throat or via fecal matter.
The last known case in the UK was in the 80s.
It has been detected in London sewage treatment plants where they constantly test for water borne and fecaly transmitted diseases. Since drinking water is taken from the same source it would be prudent to vaccinate for polio if you live there or in any area where drinking water is extracted from a source where sewage is likely to be discharged.

It’s also worth remembering that asymptomatic carriers of some diseases exist and often are the source of unexpected outbreaks. Covid is a classic example, I had a number of colleagues in healthcare who tested positive for covid antibodies during the first lockdown ( our area investigated the prevalence of the infection in healthcare workers early on), they were unaware of having symptoms but may well have inadvertently spreading Covid. I frequently pass on colds to my DH without having any symptoms other than a mild dry throat or a slight headache. He doesn’t go out much due to having had a stroke so there is no other possible vector. Frequent short lived exposure to lots of antigens makes our immune systems superhuman. Childcare workers are similar. During my first few years of work I had every cold going but then gradually my immune system toughened up and is pretty invincible.
I’ve had covid every year since the pandemic but is never more than a headache or a sniffle. I think I have it at the moment but the only symptom is an upset stomach. DS came home from uni on Friday so stands a chance he’s brought it back. I can’t be bothered to test and since I’m on leave for the week I don’t pose a risk.

We’ve agreed beforehand that they would have some vaccines but not all. We’d agree to those that are well established and used for 10+ years. I followed this agreement during our babies’ first year, but since then he voiced that he’s not happy for him to have the MMR vaccine. I took my child to be vaccinated against MMR nonetheless and behind his back (I accept that this might be morally wrong and that it is his child as much as it is mine).

No I don’t, anyone can make a TikTok/ YouTube video, write an article. They can claim anything,

Having your work peer reviewed and published means you need to provide what you are saying is true.

I could write and self publish an article today calling my self Dr Joanna smith, and stating that eating carrots causes babies to have ginger hair, does not make it true.

Do they show their qualification certificates on their tiktok posts?

A medical professional doing a tiktok (if with their degree on show) would not fill be with confidence, no.

I’m not sure it’s going to be possible for you to get your head around the way of thinking.

As an individual making a decision in the context of the majority of the population around you being vaccinated, and advanced health care being readily available and free at the point of use - then it’s vaguely understandable.

You’re comparing the definite risk of vaccine damage, with a theoretical risk of complications IF your child gets the disease. One you’re definitely exposing your child to. The other is only a ‘might’.

Then even if your child does get the disease. They only ‘might’ have serious complications from it. Your awareness of those is low. Because it doesn’t get much media attention. And they’re rare in the general population because the majority of the population are vaccinated and those vaccines are very effective.

Effective treatment being available is pretty reliant on the majority being vaccinated. If they weren’t, and demand for it was higher, then there wouldn’t be capacity to provide the treatment and after care that’s available now.

You clearly take the wider social responsibility factors into account. If you didn’t, and chose to selfishly rely on the majority of others vaccinating, it then creates an environment where your individual decision is easier to justify, and can (sort of) be rationalised.

Also, Doctors aren't automatically saints. If you have a medical education and zero scruples (plus a book or supplements to sell) even hinting at being a antivax can male you very famous very quickly

Im not an anti vaxxer but I don't have any myself because every single one sets off my arthritis and then Im in pain for months, so do anaesthetics and some medication.
I've worked in the NHS for 45 years and I'd love to have a covid and flu every year but I can't risk it. I'd be off for weeks.
I've never had either covid or flu thankfully.
Apart from arthritis which is hereditary in my family, Im very healthy.

Exactly this! I think that the secrecy and blatant denial around vaccine injury actually makes it worse and parents then go the other way. There’s no informed choice. If you go on the NHS website under side effects it has the usual “fever, rash” etc but it doesn’t actually say the severity of what could happen no matter how rare it is. It seems manipulative and makes ppl wary. Then there’s also those that read the studies showing side effects such as autoimmune diseases, neurological disorders, autism etc. The studies that show that these diseases were in decline well before vaccines were introduced. There’s doctors that are struck off for even trying to publish studies going against any single vaccine. I’m not an anti vaxxer but I’m vaccine hesitant and have spread the vaccines out for my children and I forwent one in particular, that’s my choice and I won’t ever be forced or shamed into vaccinating my children to make others feel better. (And don’t @ me about protecting others, I’m severely immunocompromised with RA and inject jak inhibitors weekly, my decision is the same. Let your vaccine protect you, my child’s health status and what goes in their body is not a responsibility to protect anyone else and that’s a very dangerous narrative to push). Anyone can slate me for that but it’s water off a ducks back to me.

Why would you love to have vaccines that you clearly don’t need? What a weird mentality

My children is at very minimal risk from complications from measles.

Please tell me how you know this.

They seem healthier and more resilient than their vaccinated peers, and that's the data I go on.

Please tell me how you know this.

How odd that you seem to know many people who claim their child has a vaccine injury, as many as those who are healthier than their vaccinated counterparts - which is in direct opposition to my experience. Almost like our circles of about 30-odd isn't really a representative sample, and that we all have our own biases that lead us to giving more weight to what we agree with.

And frankly the fact that you don't know of anyone that's died from measles is so lovely for you. A child died in Liverpool this year from measles - unvaccinated, by the way. It's easy to sit from your comfortable ivory tower and say that you are confident your child won't be affected - before the vaccine, 2.6 million deaths worldwide were recorded from measles. It's not a coincidence that we only see one or two a year. But that's likely to go up.

So, you concede that your original point was incorrect?

If vaccination rates continue dropping to below herd immunity levels would you reconsider? Relying on herd immunity could backfire if too many follow suit.
Herd immunity does rely on compliance. I understand individual choice but it’s an attitude that is very reliant on the majority being vaccinated. So by exercising choice you hope that others don’t.

Why do some of you accept that 1 person could be affected by a vaccine, but not that 1 person could be affected and die from the disease it's trying to prevent? It's like you believe that to not take a vaccination makes you somehow morally superior to someone who does.

Also find it amusing that the one thing I'd expect to see someone advocating for Tiktok doctors would be "well of course the first part of my research was to check their credentials" - not mentioned though. Which leads me to believe that some people's research is let's say, maybe less than robust.

Becsuse I don't want to risk getting covid or flu clearly! Why is that so hard to understand?

Absolutely not. Anyone dr OR not can make TikTok or write an article about what they Believe. You cannot use this as research

I am asking the for links to peer reviewed research.

Just to add to the wider discourse, it is not simply a case of deciding if your children are at low risk of complications. Your children will potentially spread the disease to people who are at risk. Children usually grow into adults who eventually become elderly. So also consider the lifetime risk, as it is more important than thinking about next month or next year.

Ah but @GreggWallacesTrousers you're assuming here that these people give a shit about the wider community. They do not. They're more about Sticking It To The Man (while no doubt still abiding my most other rules and regs).