Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

[Raisinmeup]

I see a lot online about anti-vaxxers and I’m trying to understand where they’re coming from, so this is a genuine question, not rage bait.

My understanding is that some parents choose not to vaccinate their children because they believe vaccines cause harmful side effects, or they just don’t trust the government and big pharma in general.

But what’s the alternative? If everyone stopped vaccinating, wouldn’t we start seeing diseases like polio coming back? That would mean more infant deaths and lifelong disabilities. It just doesn’t seem like a rational trade off?

From what I’ve seen, there seems to be a belief that immune systems can deal with these illnesses naturally, but I wonder if part of that belief comes from the fact that parents of today haven’t actually seen what a world without vaccines looks like. We’ve grown up in a time where infant death from preventable diseases is almost unheard of, so maybe it’s easy to forget how serious these infections really are.

And lastly, if you haven’t vaccinated your child and they then catch one of these illnesses, do you not end up turning to the same big pharma for the medicine or treatment anyway?

I still think people are conflating people who are staunchly against any vaccinations and people who are not against vaccines but despise being told what to do by faceless entities like the government. I fall into the latter category. I've had all my vaccines, include the three covid ones (two main ones and a booster), but if a covid vaccine was offered to me today, I'd decline. I've recently had a flu jab because I'm pregnant. I'm not prone to being struck down, but with baby and my immune system being under load, I took it. I'm due my RSV and whooping cough vaccine soon.

You don't get measles from living in a dirty house, you get it from people who've got measles. Unvaccinated children in Western countries have a better chance of avoiding measles because of herd immunity, which is built by responsible parents who vaccinated their children unless there's a medical reason not to.

Thanks for your comment. What were the reasons that you almost died from measles? Pneumonia?

@user1471538275

If a child is in the developed world and has access to sanitation and good nutrition, their risk of complications from something like measles is very low.

I'm afraid I don't agree with this statement. Certainly the risk of complications is lower than in the development world but there is still a very real risk of long term harm. My son contracted chickenpox at 5 months old (fully breastfed, mother immune) and was really quite ill and at risk of encephalitis. My husband contracted mumps almost 20 years ago. Mumps is now so rare that none of the doctors in the hospital he ended up in had seen it before and had to call another hospital for advice. He was told that it would be very likely to have affected his fertility (it didn't).

ALL interventions carry a risk and we know that there is a very, very small risk of a child having an adverse reaction to a vaccine - that's why they're done in clinic - but it really is very, very small, much smaller than the risk from the illness.

I studied an MSc a few years ago and a lot of the other students were from countries in the developing world. They were astounded that, over here, we decline vaccines. They see harm from the illnesses we vaccinate against, regularly in their home country.

I never suggested you could get measles from a dirty house. I said the risk of serious complication from measles is reduced for a child living in the developed world with sanitation and good nutrition, mainly Vitamin A, is very low.

I don't think we can avoid measles. I referred to serious complications from measles, not measles itself.

I understand that some people raise the small number of cases where vaccines cause side effects as their rationale for avoiding them, but that just brings me back to the same question. People are afraid of being part of the small group who might experience an adverse reaction, yet they’re willing to take on the much bigger risk of catching the actual disease instead? Diseases that caused widespread fatalities in infants? I suspect we haven’t seen the full impact of this yet because these illnesses are still largely kept at bay by vaccination.

To me, it’s a bit like imagining a world where a vaccine was created to prevent all cancers. Over the course of a generation or two, cancer becomes so rare that people forget how devastating it used to be. Then, as time passes, some start refusing the vaccine because a small number of people experience side effects, without realising the enormous suffering it once prevented.

You haven't answered the op's question though.

I wonder how far we are from being able to stop vaccinating anyone for polio? We no longer give a small pox vaccine. If we could get the few children in afghan and Pakistan protected we’d eradicate it. I think northern Nigeria is now clear. Bloody Taliban.

There are a few other tropical diseases that could be wiped out in the next 10-20 years, would be amazing, particularly if we can get rid of malaria.

I just think the potential of vaccination is so huge we should take the time risks.

I've had full vaccination schedule myself and I've chosen the same for my child. But I find the growing authoritarianism quite terrifying, and the strange deference to "the experts" as if medicine has never involved experts administering completely bumkum treatments. People need to be free to make their own healthcare decisions, including decisions about what is injected into their own and their children's bodies. That means some people will make what you believe is the wrong choice. They don't need to be browbeaten into submission. Their body, their choice.

I think this is totally valid. I think there are other factors than just vaccines which made serious complications from these illnesses happen though. Such as polio, in 97% of cases it's asymptomatic. A small number of people, statistically, will get paralysis, but this is in countries where sanitation and nutrition are scarce.

I'm totally unqualified, I get that, but I'm still unable to take my children to be vaccinated, out of fear of complications from the vaccines.

The thing which contributes to my fear of complications from vaccines is, partly, the unwillingness of corporate press and media to acknowledge that ANY children suffer adverse reactions. This makes me think 'if they won't acknowledge the small number of severe side-effects from vaccines, what if it's a larger problem? How would I know?' And, because you're dishonest about the amount of side effects, how do I know you're not dishonest about the scope of the side effects?

I realise peer review exists but in the same vein I think compartmentalisation could contribute to things being concealed. There's also collusion and integrity at play. Publishing demands on medical professionals mean they name swap on journal publications, things like that.

I can tell you're a fellow layperson with curiosity and I'm interested to continue conversing about it. I am too. I know that the risk of complication from one of the diseases is higher than risk of complication from the vaccine as well, yet I simply can't bring myself to put my child at risk from the vaccine, when they are already at very low risk from the diseases.

I don't have children.
As far as I am concerned, 46 yo woman, my immune system sorted everything out, up until now.
Never been vaccinated for COVID, obviously what my parents decided thirty years ago I had no word in.
Just came out of the "new variant" of COVID.
Never felt quite this bad, but hey, fortnight and everything is good.

Why should we respect other people's choices when they are bad choices and affect the wider community?

I'm a fairly new anti-vaxxer so my reasons will be different to others.
I was very pro-vaccine, I always had everything possible for me and my children. I even paid privately for them to have chicken pox and meningitis vaccines.
I became seriously ill after the Covid vaccine and my world fell apart. I was in hospital for 5 weeks, in a wheelchair for 4 months and had to give up work. 4 years later I still have numerous chronic health conditions.
My GP surgery said he did not believe me. They falsified my notes to pretend that I had never mentioned the vaccine. A&E said they did not believe me. All my tests and scans came back "normal". The MRI of my brain showed abnormal matter but "there is no evidence this was caused by rhe vaccine". A cardiologist admitted he had seen many patients adversely affected and said he would never have the vaccine himself. Of course his report made no mention of what he had told me.
Now I am unemployed, trying to support my young children. I do not qualify for any benefits based on my medical conditions, because on paper there is nothing wrong with me. I am expected to look for work but I can't. My parents had to retire early to support us.
People say "trust the science", but the science failed me. I am in a support group with thousands of others in a similar position. You won't hear about us because the government and media silence us.
The statistics on side effects will never be true because they won't include those of us who are not believed.
I don't trust anyone now - the scientists, the medical staff, the government.
I will never vaccinate my family every again. If they fall ill from an illness (rather than the vaccine) they will be believed and supported.

You can’t put your kid in kindy where I live without vaccinations

People making choices that negatively affect you happen 1000s of times a day. They drink too much, drive badly, eat badly, smoke, hurt others, hurt themselves, take risks you wouldn't choose.

That's individual choices for you.

You vaccinating yourself is your business and protects yourself (and others to a lesser extent). Others not vaccinating themselves put them at risk (and others to a lesser extent).

Be happy with your own choices.

Thank you for this understanding and compassionate answer. Finally, someone who has common sense! I've often had people say to me "just take xyz medicine" as though I shouldn't consider what goes into my body and might do (more).damage.

It's refreshing to see someone who has the intelligence to not just disniss or diminish others' concerns.

Sorry, what do you mean? You were vaccinated as a child but you attribute your good health to your own immune system?

What university did you do your research at? What are your qualifications?

This is the thing though. Medication adverse effects and injuries do happen.

I'm proof (unfortunately!) of this. I saw 5 different neurologists before one confirmed that I had my movement disorder. I had self diagnosed it but nobody was willing to admit these things cause harm.

It actually was the gaslighting that upset me most, and the lack of validation. Before I was harmed, I was never worried really about adverse effects. I think i naively thought the medications were all safe and that I was ok to take everything.

Now, unfortunately it's the opposite and I am overly cautious, perhaps too much so, of any medication 😅

But it's not good nutrition or sanitation or anything like that that stops people getting measles. It's an airborne disease. It's not like cholera, it doesn't live in drinking water, it's like catching a cold. It's other people's decision to vaccinate themselves and their children that resulted in measles nearly being eradicated, and it's on the rise because of the number of people who now don't do that. That's what has been protecting the children of people who are antivax. The fact that other people arent. And because it's so very easy to catch measles, what looks like a low percentage of complications in absolute terms (though I think most doctors would warn you about a procedure that carried a 10-20% probability of serious complications) translates into an awful lot of affected/sick/dead people.

I had a bad reaction to the MMR myself when I was a child and had the second batch of jabs individually so I'm not saying no one gets any complications from vaccines. I haven't actually heard anyone deny that they do, either.

I'm so sorry. As a fellow patient who's been injured and suffered for more than a decade, you have my utmost sympathy.❤️

Yes, in the Communist country I was born, I was once vaccinated against some
ancient ailment I don't know the English word for.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-historic-confirmed-cases-notifications-and-deaths/measles-historic-confirmed-cases-notifications-and-deaths#measles-notifications-and-deaths-in-england-and-wales-1940-to-2025

Measles death data here for UK

It shows clearly that deaths from measles had already reduced significantly long before vaccination.

This is because of improve sanitation and healthcare.

Since 1968 when measles vaccination began deaths have shrunk further - but healthcare has further improved.

So vaccination has some effect, so does healthcare and sanitation.

Antibiotics started being used in 1946 by the way

I truly believe it comes from not understanding.

anyone from a science or medical background know the mechanics of it