Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

[Raisinmeup]

I see a lot online about anti-vaxxers and I’m trying to understand where they’re coming from, so this is a genuine question, not rage bait.

My understanding is that some parents choose not to vaccinate their children because they believe vaccines cause harmful side effects, or they just don’t trust the government and big pharma in general.

But what’s the alternative? If everyone stopped vaccinating, wouldn’t we start seeing diseases like polio coming back? That would mean more infant deaths and lifelong disabilities. It just doesn’t seem like a rational trade off?

From what I’ve seen, there seems to be a belief that immune systems can deal with these illnesses naturally, but I wonder if part of that belief comes from the fact that parents of today haven’t actually seen what a world without vaccines looks like. We’ve grown up in a time where infant death from preventable diseases is almost unheard of, so maybe it’s easy to forget how serious these infections really are.

And lastly, if you haven’t vaccinated your child and they then catch one of these illnesses, do you not end up turning to the same big pharma for the medicine or treatment anyway?

1. Epidemiology. Risks of encephalitis or otitis media is 1 in1,0000 or percentage in single figures. It's a relatively low risk.

1. Most people say things like 'oh, it's routine that kids get everything going in nursery', or 'my child suffered from colds, flu, stomach bugs in their years in school' while both my children never had these routine illness.

It's totally anecdotal but nevertheless they are the answer to your queries.

How do you know it's not coincidence?

ROFL @user098786533 further to my point just above yours - which doctor on Tiktok can you point out please? I'd like to check their credentials. Not saying it would change my mind - as I mentioned, we all have our biases - but I do like to cover all bases.

You’re not on social media at all? But you’re here posting on social media?

you said no one qualified or educated in the medical field would be antivax but there are people who are just that who are antivax, including Wakefield, so your point is just categorically false.

The inability to recognise where you have been misinformed in the past does not contribute to your credibility.

So what were the key factors influencing your decision, if you don’t mind me asking?

I didn’t say that! I said can you link some peer reviewed research articles!

someone claiming be a doctor/ scientist and making a TikTok/ YouTube video does not make it true or real and cannot be used for research.

😂 well there is certainly that possibility.

The children that died on my ward all caught their diseases from someone…none of them were “patient zero”.

I haven’t seen antivax parents mention their potential roles in that happening anywhere in this thread.

I'm not citing 'a doctor on tiktok'

I'm saying many people who have views that vaccines are dangerous are medically trained, contrary to your original point, which is that 'no medical professional or person trained in medicine could be antivax'

They don't know anything about the ingredients. Or why they're there. They just see scary words and assume.

Poor kids.

The coincidence being that prior to the vaccine we saw 2.6 million deaths worldwide from measles and now see (from 2023) 107,500? What coincidence did you think I meant? No I don't think a 95% decrease (while the population continues to expand, let's not forget) can be down to coincidence. I will admit I'm not that great at stats though.

Sorry not sure what point you're trying to make here, other than my own?

1. Epidemiology. Risks of encephalitis or otitis media is 1 in1,0000 or percentage in single figures. It's a relatively low risk - and the risk from the vaccine? As vaccine injury seems to be the biggest worry for you?
2. Most people say things like 'oh, it's routine that kids get everything going in nursery', or 'my child suffered from colds, flu, stomach bugs in their years in school' while both my children never had these routine illness - as I said, my experience is the opposite, what's your point? How do you know that "most people" you're referring to all had vaccinated kids?

I know they're anecdotal, my point is that you seem to using your biases and personal stories as your basis for making a decision why your children should not have vaccines. I have three kids to your two - all completely vaccinated - I feel like this should sway you towards making a decision in the opposite direction as it's just as valid - but it doesn't.

I'm not suggesting someone on tiktok saying 'I'm a doctor' is valid.

I'm saying that medically trained professionals who are antivax can be posted on tiktok, and that posting onto tiktok does not negate the fact that they are medically trained.

You have a comprehension problem.

So!!!!

You can’t link to any peer reviewed research!

This is correct. Medically trained does not mean qualified to dissect and interrogate epidemiological data, either. We specialise for a reason.

1. Exactly my children’s risk of complications from the disease is really low.
2. Their risk of complications from vaccines is zero.

I'd like to keep both that way.

What do you mean your experience is the opposite ?

You have unvaccinted children who healthier than their peers?
You see unvaccinated children who are sicker than their peers?

My DS had chicken pox. I was relieved he was going to get it out of the way before he started school. But as the week went on he became very poorly, the lesions were coalescing and since one of his friends had ended up in hospital with similar and had a serious infection I made him an appointment with the GP. He had seemed to improved during the day and my MIL had looked after him so I could go into work for the morning. But the GP took one look at him, took his temp and immediately rang the hospital. He was admitted within 30mins and they sat us down to tell us that they suspected viral meningitis, a rare complication of Cp. They were on standby to airlift him to the local children’s hospital. Fortunately after large quantities of antipyretics and antivirals he improved rapidly.

I’m an HCP but totally missed it, felt very guilty that I’d just assumed that the 1 in 10000 chance of meningitis wasn’t going to happen to DS. He was a robust healthy 2 yr old that had been EBF until 22mnths, been fed the best organic diet and exposed to healthy immune system building experiences ( dirt, pets etc)

You really can’t predict the outcome of a viral disease. You can just hope, based on possibility that your child isn’t the one.

That's a really good point.

Wakefield was a gastroenterologist.

Who would be qualified to assess a vaccine injury risk? A toxicologist?

Vaccinated as per schedule?

I know a few of my friends' kids had bad chicken pox infections.

My totally unvaccinated children had a very mild infection in comparison.

Would I reconsider what?

My point is that herd immunity is important and that requires a high uptake. However, everyone makes a choice. That choice is to either take the vaccine or not. The choice should always be informed.

I exercised my choice in not taking the flu vaccine until my risk increased sufficiently to make it a sensible choice.

I exercised my choice to not give my eldest the MMR at the normal age because one of the leading medical journals at the time carried an article showing it caused autism. I reversed my choice when an outbreak occurred as I felt the risk of measles was higher at that stage. I also chose to give my other dc the MMR as there were questions about Wakefield at that stage and, while I didn't believe they were at high risk from damage if they got measles, I felt the risks of the vaccine, based on updated information, were sufficiently low that I was willing to take that chance in order to protect them and to contribute to herd immunity.

This poster doesn't do evidence.

Yeah @user098786533 - you responded to me thinking I was someone else, who also didn't say that.

This was my point. A phlebotomy nurse might have all the points you agree with. I'd give less credence to them rather than a specialist. But I would still listen.

But I give even less credence to a person who would listen to the nurse, and not even check if a) they have the credential they claim to have; b) are still licensed to practice (might not be a UK thing but I saw a thing from an American nurse who has been struck off making bold claims about something); c) aren't trying to flog something - before ticking them off as a source in their "research".

And you know what? Back in the day, yes I would have listened and believed Andrew Wakefield. Because despite him having found to have lied, categorically, I am not any sort of medical expert so I have to trust that the information I have at the time is accurate. I was a child then, so not relevant - but when my children were born they all had the MMR because the lies he told were debunked.

Are you willing to stick by those choices if any of you children get ill?
I hope you don't come running to the NHS for help.

The differentiating factors are unlikely to be vaccine related. Viral load, genetics, etc. It is easy to see first person examples and believe their statistical weight is equal to that of millions of cases aggregated by high powered studies. Unfortunately that is an illusion.

My children are vaccinated but I do take a measured approach to these things. My eldest had individual MMR vaccinations because it was the height of the scare. I think it's selfish to rely on others having their children vaccinated and I know that my children would be furious with me if I'd made the decision not to have them vaccinated.

That said, I think pharmaceutical companies do some awful things. My dad almost died in a VIOXX trial (unpaid) so I have seen what goes on (See article When half a millions Americans died and no-one noticed)

Go back and read my previous post, I CBA retyping it for you.

You don’t need to be ‘unhealthy’ to catch a virus. But you can certainly become ‘unhealthy’ by catching a virus.

If it gets to the point that whole communities are contracting vaccine preventable diseases then we’ll be in big trouble. I’d like to think we’d be able to pop the cat back in the bag with some hasty vaccinating but that might not be possible at that stage.

Also - remaining unvaccinated has only worked so far due to herd immunity. There are genuine people who can’t be vaccinated - those too young for the vaccine, some immunocompromised people and those with specific allergies. The rest of us being vaccinated we’re keeping those people safe.

I think my face in the Daily Mail if my unvaccinated child died of a VPD might be my last concern.

ETA - I’m sure there are multiple cases of this, but there’s a recent case in LA of a baby too young to be vaccinated, contracting measles, and dying from it. These are the people that we protect by being vaccinated ourselves.