Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

[Raisinmeup]

I see a lot online about anti-vaxxers and I’m trying to understand where they’re coming from, so this is a genuine question, not rage bait.

My understanding is that some parents choose not to vaccinate their children because they believe vaccines cause harmful side effects, or they just don’t trust the government and big pharma in general.

But what’s the alternative? If everyone stopped vaccinating, wouldn’t we start seeing diseases like polio coming back? That would mean more infant deaths and lifelong disabilities. It just doesn’t seem like a rational trade off?

From what I’ve seen, there seems to be a belief that immune systems can deal with these illnesses naturally, but I wonder if part of that belief comes from the fact that parents of today haven’t actually seen what a world without vaccines looks like. We’ve grown up in a time where infant death from preventable diseases is almost unheard of, so maybe it’s easy to forget how serious these infections really are.

And lastly, if you haven’t vaccinated your child and they then catch one of these illnesses, do you not end up turning to the same big pharma for the medicine or treatment anyway?

My father had polio as a child and lived with the physical consequences of the disease until his death at 72. In his later years, he also suffered from post polio syndrome which was very debilitating.
My MIL had TB in the late 1950s and spent a year separated from her baby and husband in a sanatorium.
My DC are fully vaccinated and I don’t regret those choices now, as they reach adulthood. It’s easier to be anti vax in the 21st century as the diseases that raged in earlier times have been more or less conquered thanks to herd immunity, better medicines and better living conditions. As antibiotics continue to lose efficacy and we lose herd immunity, people will, once again, return to vaccinations. Unfortunately children will die first.
The other factor is the distrust of authority and government which is increasingly widespread. Everyone can promote their views and opinions on social media where they are viewed by anyone who wants their opinion confirmed.

Yes, it's children who are vaccinated who die. There was a child I think last month who was unvaccinated for measles and died from a measles complication. That interests me but there isn't information on whether they had comorbidities.

I'll quote you as it's near the bottom but all of the people saying this must think they're so clever with their "gotcha".

Normal people can do research.

Plenty of highly qualified people are anti-vax and have written papers.

What exactly are you trying to prove?

If you mean the poor child who died in Liverpool in July and whose death was publicised as part of a campaign to encourage parents to vaccinate their children against measles, can you show me anywhere where it was reported that the child was vaccinated, because the reports I have read say it isn't known whether they were vaccinated or not.

I have never had the Covid jab or allowed my children to have it, yet I have allowed all other vaccines. My reasons are weighing up the risk/benefit ratio. We have had Covid and not had any major ill effects other than a bad cold. I did not like the way the vaccine was forced upon people, not being able to travel without one etc when it was clear it was not preventing you spreading it to others (which was later revealed). I feel the risks of it outweigh any potential benefits (of which there appear to be none, my partner had the vaccine and he has suffered worse).

From UK mortality data from measles (linked above)

2020
698
1
1 adult death, late effect of measles

2021
360
2
2 adult deaths, late effect of measles

2022
735
1
1 adult death from SSPE

2023
1,619
4
3 adult deaths, late effects of measles. 1 child death from SSPE

2024
11,162
[note 1]
5
3 adult deaths, late effects of measles. 1 adult death from SSPE and 1 acute measles death in a child with an underlying immunological problem

2025
3,268
[note 1]
[note 2]
2
1 adult death, late effect of measles. 1 acute measles death in a child with an underlying immunological problem

The notes are just to say that these are estimated, not confirmed cases - confirmed cases are further up in the data

Estimated is always higher than confirmed, sometimes considerably so.

I’m from a generation that remembers measles. I had measles and can remember it, I presume because it was so awful. I know two people who have relatives who were left disabled by measles. Why anyone would want to risk their child suffering from measles is beyond me.

Despite posting on Mumsnet …

You haven't answered any of the questions though.

What ingredients were you concerned about in which vaccines and why?

Do you also research the ingredients of antibiotics, painkillers, any medical treatment - or is it just vaccines? Would you/do you refuse antibiotics for your child when they're recommended?

This is what my dad believed and I wasn’t vaccinated as a child. He thought that the side effects of vaccinations were worse than catching the disease. Also that one’s own good immunity could ward off illnesses.

Unfortunately he passed away in his 50s when I was still a teen - he contracted mumps (cf. no vax) which must’ve weakened his dodgy heart and he had a fatal heart attack.

My DCs had all their vaccinations and I’m pretty much vaccinated now (except for mumps ironically - had measles as a child and had Rubella vax after having DD - was not immune). I also had whooping cough which was awful - just after the vaccine came in to being.

So yes, I do agree with vaccination but I’m not so naive to think some people are susceptible to being harmed by them.

They were unvaccinated for the conditions that killed them, yes. I’ve also had a significant number of adults in high dependency beds (costing tax payers thousands per day) suffering from the consequences of not being vaccinated. Of those, two patients died that I am aware of. These are not things people tend to put in the Daily Mail due to patient privacy. There are no guarantees in life but death is usually considered a worse outcome than vaccine-related side effects.

I know a few extreme anti vaxxers and I can’t get my head around their thinking, but I will say that if I cherry pick, some of what they say makes sense. I absolutely vaccinated my kids when they were little, but one child was subsequently hospitalised after his MMRV - the Drs told us it wasn’t related but I’m certain it was a bad reaction. I’d still encourage parents to vaccinate though. And he was fine, despite the reaction. My second child was diagnosed with Coeliac when he was small and I didn’t even consider it was a vaccine that triggered it, because after genetic testing we found the gene in both children but only one has active Coeliac, the other may never have it. I have been told by this parent that a vaccine triggered it, but I’ll never know, and I would take Coeliac over measles, diphtheria and whooping cough any day! But I do understand the arguments on some level, and I know that vaccines aren’t 100% safe. It’s a case of making a decision that makes sense to you as a parent.
I’ll add that I’m interested to know what one of these staunch anti-vaxxers would do if their child had an accident and needed a tetanus or rabies jab.. would they do it? That’s something I’d be interested to find out.

I have an ex who is permanently deaf as a result of getting measles when he was young. He grew up in Oxford and his parents were anti vax. He has so much anger towards them now.

What the mortality rate doesn’t tell you is the serious complications that are caused by some illness. Encephalitis can occur with measles, which can cause permanent damage. It can lead to blindness, permanent lung damage and immune amnesia, wiping out previously anquired immune response, so leaving you open to infections you’ve previously been immune to.

It’s a virus so not treatable with antibiotics and because of a long period of successful vaccination programmes there has been no investment in alternative treatments. It’s basically treated with antipyretics.

Mortality rate as a population isn’t high but for an individual family it is devastating. In addition we are no longer equipped to nurse the disease at home so the pressure on the health service could be catastrophic.

Polio is another “old” disease that people dismiss. The last epidemic was horrendous. My aunts father lost the use of his leg muscles and spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair, my DH’s uncle lost the use of one leg. But this generation has pretty much disappeared so the damage is no longer visible.Again it’s viral so treatment is limited. It’s also a lottery as to how it will affect you. My aunts DF was on a ward with many in iron lungs to breath for them but often walked out of hospital, my aunts DF had a relatively mild infection but never walked again.

@GreggWallacesTrousers

Death is a vaccine side effect.

A medical practice has accepted that a 26-year-old man who died within two weeks of taking AstraZeneca's Covid-19 vaccine was not told the correct risk.
Jack Hurn, from Redditch, developed blood clots on the brain in June 2021 after he got the jab at the Revival Fires Clinic in Dudley.

BBC

The parents of a young woman who died after being given an AstraZeneca Covid jab have accused the NHS of failing to pass on known safety warnings about the vaccine.
Marina Waldron, 21, visited hospital with excruciating headaches three times in the week before her fatal collapse from a brain haemorrhage in March 2021.
Max and Liz Waldron said that despite her deteriorating condition, A&E doctors had seemed unaware of the emerging side-effects associated with the jab and warnings that had been issued.

The death of a psychologist after his Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 jab was due to "unintended complications of the vaccine", an inquest has ruled.
Stephen Wright, an NHS employee in south-east London, died 10 days after his first dose in January 2021, senior coroner Andrew Harris found.
Dr Wright, 32, suffered a blood clot to the brain after receiving the vaccine.

Isnt that the guy who thinks autism is caused by gluten?

To your first point, what does it matter? If my children are safe because the disease prevalence is low, then they're still safe. I get that I'm being selfish, I don’t dispute that. But are my children less safe?

Your second point is really interesting. So if we did stop vaccinating would polio become more prevalent and then my children’s risk of paralysis from it become higher?

Yes I suppose is the answer. But then what data do we have on children in the developed world in good nutrition suffering the severe complications? Is there any? If there were then why do vaccine campaigns focus on historical global data?

It's not my child’s perceived risk of catching the disease. It's their perceived risk of severe complications from the disease.

I think we have to stop gaslighting parents and saying there’s no risk, your child will be fine etc

Nobody will ever know this for sure, I think anytime someone shares their concern they are shot down, called stupid and uneducated.

Let parents share their concerns! Have a rational conversation.

When I gave my children their 1st vaccinations I was scared and anxious and felt like I had done the wrong thing for a long time. I have met a few people who have been damaged by vaccines, I believe them. I also personally know someone who died the next day of a blood clot after taking the COVID vaccine.

Not everyone has confidence in vaccines and personally I can see why. It’s a massive decision for parents to make.

I don’t know what the alternative is OP, however I am against forcing parents into vaccines- which I know is the case for different parts of the world.

Do you have children? If so I'm curious how you have dealt with vaccines for them between the two of you?

My husband is similar, his mother was anti-vax (however she did get him at least 1 vaccine - oral polio vaccine). He does hold the view of he hates the idea of giving our children a vaccine and them having a serious adverse side effect from it, the feeling that he would have caused that when if they hadn't been vaccinated they might never have got that illness in the first place. I do kind of understand that view/feeling.

I was raised pro-vax but admit I have become more vaccine hesitant, if vaccines were truly 100% safe and effective I would have no issues with them, but unfortunately they are not, there is always a risk (however small) that there can be a serious adverse reaction, and that makes me worry when it comes to getting them for our children. However, I am also worried about them getting the actual illnesses and suffering through those and potential serious injuries or even death from them.

So, in the end we are kind of meeting each other in the middle, my husband is more anti-live-vax now (so MMR, chicken pox etc for example), I am more hesitant than I might have been with a pro-vax partner. Our children are now mostly vaccinated but we did split the vaccines up and delay some of them, we have refused a couple (e.g. rotovirus) and are still debating with MMR which is the last big vaccine they have not yet had (eldest is going to be offered it in November at school and we are tentatively leaning towards accepting 1 dose then and calling it done as there is very little difference in efficacy between 1 and 2 doses and 1 is much much better than none). Youngest is 1 booster dose away from completing catching up with 4in1 polio, pertussis etc which he will be offered next year. Both children had chicken pox naturally last year so that is no longer a concern for us.

We live in a country with high vaccine uptake and so there has not been a case of Measles in our area for I think 5 years now, I do worry about travelling and visiting England with them having no Measles protection.

I have friends who have similar aged children who have decided not to have any vaccines for them, I think being anti-vax is quite normal in the area we grew up in now. My husbands family is all very anti-vax though some did have covid vaccines due to wanting to protect vulnerable family members. One of my friends holds the same mentality of not wanting to give her chid a vaccine at the
risk of 'causing' them to get hurt by the vaccine, it does seem to be quite a common feeling/reasoning.

So they were vaccinated as per the schedule aside from this one illness?

What was the illness?

I was a child in the 1960s when I got measles, just before the vaccine was rolled out. I'd say we had sanitation and good nutrition (probably better than many children today). Measles still had me very ill for weeks and left me partially deaf.

Thanks for this. I am considering vaccination. My 14 year old is not eligible for any kind of catch up regimen. My 4 year old may be, but I still cannot bring myself to go and get them jabbed when they seem so much healthier than their peers.

I want to though. I really, really do.

It's people like you that infuriate me.

"I did my research" - and your research, as (presumably) not a medical professional, is better than decades of medicine etc. how exactly? I assume you mean you've read and digested absolutely everything, from sources that both support and refute your starting position (which you admit to be an anti-vax) and drawing up some sort of robust statistical analysis that comes to the conclusion that even if your kids gets, I dunno, measles - they're unlikely to die from it?

I'm sure this will be deleted as a personal attack. It's not. I feel this way about every anti-vaxxer. You think you're cleverer and more special than people who've dedicated their lives to trying to eradicate preventable diseases.

My DD ended up in hospital after her 8week jabs. Don't know which one caused it. She was admitted for 2 nights and still unwell for a good week at home. There's no denying it was a direct result of the vaccines.

But, in the grand scheme of things, 2 nights in hospital and a week of Calpol and cuddles is nothing. A million times better than actually contracting one of the diseases she is now protected against.

I was cautious with the 12 week and 16 week jabs. Had a phone consult before hand (pre-covid when phone appointments were rare). And I had a hospital go-bag with me in case, but she was fine with those. Had my younger children vaccinated too and all was fine.

The only coherent reason for not vaccinating imo is from medical advice (allergy/immune condition etc) which is the reason we need herd immunity.