To be increasingly enraged by 14 yr old DS's social etiquette

[GreenLingo]

Or more to the point - lack of etiquette.
Oldest child, first to hit teen years, so I've got no experience.
I need some advice.
I place a lot of importance on good manners and good etiquette. I just think it's so important in life.
I have drilled it in to my kids since they were old enough to start understanding, as in around 2 years old.
One of the things I'm really big on is being polite to others.
DS, as a primary school age child, up until he left at the age of 11, was a ray of sunshine. My God, I think back and he was just this ball of bright, radiant, happy, smiling, laughing, energy, he was a very engaged and engaging child. He constantly looked happy. And after all my hard work of teaching him manners and social etiquette, he displayed them beautifully. He would greet every adult he knew, i.e. my adult friends, DH's friends, adult family members such as my brother, my mum, the parents of his school friends, teachers, etc., with direct eye contact, a huge smile, and a hello. They would talk to him, ask how his day has been, and he would cheerfully and confidently answer them and openly chat to them whilst still maintaining eye contact and exhibiting brilliant social manners. Adults that are close family friends, and family members, would extend their arms to hug him and he would happily hug them and smile at them. I would receive endless compliments from these adults about how polite he was, and how good his manners were, and they would all comment on how lovely he was. He was like this right up to age of late 11.
When he started secondary school aged 12, he suddenly shut down socially and suddenly started to find direct eye contact difficult in conversation with these same adults, so he started looking away from them when they spoke to him - the exact same adults he'd spent his whole childhood happily chatting to and engaging with and spending loads of time with, so I'm talking about adults he knows really well - and he stopped smiling at these same adults.
I explained to him it is really important to look at someone when they are speaking to you, otherwise it looks rude, or sends signals that you're not listening, but literally overnight he just suddenly couldn't do it anymore.
I put it down to shyness maybe developing with the onset of puberty. He was growing much taller, his voice was changing, his appearance was changing, new secondary school changes, his lifelong best friend friendship broke down which upset him, and I just thought maybe he's overwhelmed by all these changes and is feeling self conscious. The same adults started commenting on it to me, noticing how different he was behaving towards them when they saw him, and were asking me if he was ok. I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass."
Fast forward another 2 years and his social manners are an absolute disgrace. My God, he is so rude to people. He won't look at them. He will not meet their direct eye contact. He won't smile at them. He won't say a basic hello to them. If he is asked a direct question by them, he won't answer in more than 1 word and even then he'll say it to the ground, not to their face. I've told him, if you're finding it difficult to talk to people, just at least smile at them. A smile can say so much. But he will not smile at anyone.
It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment. These are lovely, non intimidating adults who are either long standing family friends or family members who he has known and spent quality time with all his life.
Yesterday, I was on the village green talking to a mum friend. We have been to several parties at her house with DS. She has hosted him. Openly welcomed him at her house. He has given her a hug over the years upon arriving and leaving her parties with us. Yesterday, he walked past me and her on his way home from school, he wouldn't even look at her. She tried really hard to catch his eye to smile, and he just made sure he looked away. He would not look at or smile at her. I walked over to him whilst she was seeing to her dog, and asked him to please say hello to her. He would not. He wouldn't answer me and he wouldn't speak to her.
I could give umpteen examples of this. So many social situations where he is blanking my friends, blanking parents of his friends, people whose homes he has spent time in for years. Even to family members, my brother and mum, his uncle and grandmother, he has stopped hugging them and barely speaks a word to them.
I can see the confusion in people's faces, and I can see that they sometimes look a bit hurt, or a bit offended, by his blanking of them. No amount of me explaining to him about how he is coming across to others is having any impact. And believe me, I've talked to him about it over and over again.
Took DS to a medical appointment yesterday. A 45 minute consultation, where a professional was directly talking to him and trying to get information from him (he has a medical health condition). Not once would DS meet their eyeline. Not once did he give eye contact.
I took him to a GP last week because he was ill and needed antibiotics. Wouldn't look at the doctor at all when he was being spoken to.
2 old friends of mine visited, said hello and smiled to DS and he didn't smile back, he just gave a straight faced hello whilst looking down, then looked away. He walked off without saying a word to her, and my friend said to me "He doesn't want to see us does he" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and she looked visibly pissed off. This friend buys him birthday and Christmas presents every year, through his whole life and still to this day. I'd briefed him beforehand about manners and how he must ensure good manners and be polite to these close friends of mine, as I pre-empted what his behaviour would be like. Still, he still couldn't be polite.
I am really, seriously struggling with this.
I have talked to him over and over again about this. I understand a 14 year old boy isn't going to go around hugging adult women like he did when he was 6, and I understand that puberty brings self consciousness, but for God's sake, he can't say a basic hello and look at someone in the eye anymore?! It's insane.
What is going on with him?
If he'd been like this his whole life I'd have maybe some understanding, or at least acceptance. But how has he gone from such a bright, happy soul smiling and talking and looking at all the adults in his life, to this?

this. There might be something wrong and you should check, there might not be and its just entering teen years but for goodness sake cut the lad some slack

If they grow out of it then that's a relief to hear, but my point was it's not just a little thing that doesn't matter. If you are consistently rude and hostile to everyone you meet, refusing to engage with them, show any interest in them or even share anything about yourself or answer questions with more than one word, it will impact on EVERYTHING in your life, from getting a job to finding a partner or having any friends or even joining a hobby group.

DSD definitely thinks I'm being ridiculous when I tell her that she is going to really struggle with life if she keeps being so abrasive with everyone, she has great grades, she does volunteer work, she's got Grade awards in her hobbies, but none of that will count for anything if she can't hold a basic conversation without being rude and sarcastic. Our extended family and friends make an effort but describe her as "hard work".

I think that’s a bit unfair. In order to describe what’s going on OP can only really say what SHE has observed. It’s more extreme than just teenage sullenness and whilst my two DSs at same age could be awful at home they held it together to outsiders and still polite. What OP is saying is that it’s not, from her observations, happening just at home. So she’s worried. That’s not “self absorbed”.

The fact you've said "enraged" in your thread title makes you pretty unreasonable. Imagine getting enraged over a teenage boy just acting like a typical teenage boy. The poor lad.

You are being ridiculous. She will be absolutely fine.

To give you some hope, my Mum and I were discussing how did we get from a similar position (grunting, neanderthal who couldn't make eye contact and basically ate like an ape) into the 19 year old now running debates at Cambridge, socialising with people all around the world and being perfectly charming. He might surprise you. It's a phase (just keep repeating that to yourself). I am now deep in DD's eye rolling, saracasm and non-existent skirtage. Plus girls' rooms are far far far worse from general enquiry amongst friends.

This sounds a lot like my DD12,years ago when she was younger she would happily chat to anybody!,for the last few years (I'd say 3 years) she just completely freezes when people speak to her.The only 3 people she can comfortably speak to are me,my other DD27 and my nephew 19.I only recently found out that she doesn't even speak to her father (we split 2 1/2 years ago)yet in the school holidays she will spend an entire week with him and not utter one word to him.They communicate via text as he doesn't push her as he says he was very shy as a child but since I've found out she doesn't speak to him it was the turning point for me to seek some help for her.
I always thought she was just being ignorant to people,especially family members who she'd never previously had trouble speaking to such as my mom and sisters and I used to go mad at her for not speaking or acknowledging them at all,she has trouble making eye contact and just completely freezes when she is spoken to.Its the same with an appointments like opticians or GP,she just freezes.
She's thriving in school and has a good friend group,teachers say she's doing really well but lacks confidence to participate in class discussions.
The GP has referred her now as like I say once I found out she doesn't even speak to her dad anymore I thought this is something deeper than just being ignorant so we are waiting on the referral now.The GP said it may be related to a traumatic event and the only one is when my son died aged 22 from Cancer,she was only 9 at the time.
No amount of telling her off for being ignorant helps, or pressuring her to speak makes any difference,she just physically cant do it.I belive she may have Situational Mutism so hopefully once the referral comes through we can help her to find coping mechanisms to help her so her world isn't so small.The GP said just by leaving it or waiting for her to grow out of it isn't going to help so we need to get her referred.
Thing is she never shuts up at home to me or my other daughter but nobody else can get a word out of her,she's like a rabbit caught in headlights when anyone else speaks to her.
I do understand how frustrating and embarrassing it can be when your child can't make eye contact and appears ignorant to other people but the more you push,the more they freeze.
Have you spoken to the school?,my GP also advised to seek student counseling at school so I am waiting to hear back from them too.

Sorry,I meant to quote the OP! 🤦🏼‍♀️

A small trick - tell him you read it somewhere - if he thinks he needs to look at people, but he really doesn't want to, he can look at the person's forehead.

They will think he's looking at them in the eyes but he's really not.

Stop focusing and talking about his manners, and talk to him about him. What’s going on with him? How is he feeling? How is school? How are friendships?
All behaviour is a form of communication. He’s telling you something. You just need to work out what it is.

Edit - apologies, misread your post!

Get that book 'How to talk so teens will listen and listen so teens will talk.'

I really hope so as it makes me very anxious to think she's got so much to offer but all people see is her monosyllabic answers and eye rolls. Most people don't have the patience to get to know her.

In the kindest possible way OP, please just back off. It sounds like you are constantly on his case. Just let him be, if he's a bit rude or ignores someone, just do a subtle eye roll, mutter "teenagers" and go about your business.

I think it's well known that first born children feel the full weight of their parents expectations. They "face pressure to be responsible, achieve high standards, and serve as role models for younger siblings, often leading to feelings of perfectionism, anxiety, and a burden of responsibility." Now that's from a basic AI search but it's so true.

Back off, praise the good behaviour, bite your tongue over the less-than-perfect stuff. Know that it's a phase and it'll pass. What you want at the other side is a confident, happy young man who still wants to spend time with you.

Oh and you may need to find your sense of humour to deal with some behaviours, so rather than saying "where were your manners" try something like, "well I know Grandma's perfume is strong but did you really have to leave the room?" With a smile. That takes the sting out of a comment.

You can’t make a person have eye contact with another person. It’s quite a threatening, embarrassing thing to do if someone tells you to.
the more you try to make his manners improve, the harder it will get. Just put it to one side, and love him. Your lovely boy will return eventually, even if it’s when he is 18!

I would be more interested in what he behaves like when you are not there. I think natural consequences are the answer here, if he has to (for example) go to the GP alone he either sits and says nothing and doesn't get seen properly or he gets over himself and talks to the GP. The more he has to communicate the more comfortable he will get. I always push my kids to deal with adults (adults talking for their children annoys me) so from a young enough age they have to engage themselves. Like if they want new shoes they have to ask the staff themselves, I might help getting someone's attention but then I step away. Sometimes we might role play before so they know how to handle it. I think motivation is what is missing here. Its easy sulk beside your parent. You can't really sulk when you've reached the top of the queue at the cinema and need to say what you want.

I get why you are upset OP. This is particularly hard if you are a sociable person.

I remember being that teenager, and refusing to engage if I was “told” to. My mum was a secondary school teacher, so probably knew more about adolescents than other parents did, but the one thing she nagged me to death with was homework, about which I was very rebellious and uncooperative, in year 9.

A friend of hers had a teenage daughter whose mantra was “I ‘ate yer, mum, I ‘ate everyfing about yer!”, which she would say regularly. My mum encouraged me to say this, saying it might do me good. Even I drew the line at that, but now I see my mum picked her battles.

Yeah this sounds like a lot of pressure for a teenage boy! My godson fell into ‘Kevin the teenager mode’ at 11 and it was tough to have that happy smiley kid fall into this… grumpy thing who didn’t quite know where his arms and legs ended.

in truth, we sort of left him to it. He was working out how he works, how the world works and his place in it. We didn’t ignore him, we took the piss a little bit to get a laugh out of him but we figured that everything about him was changing. He needed us to be consistent and stable and safe. Not pile pressure onto him. Don’t get me wrong, he was never allowed to be actively rude, but sometimes a shrug, an eye roll and a ‘teenagers eh!’ Goes a long way. Anyone who’s had to deal with one would understand.

He will be 15 in December and he’s started coming back round to human kind and he is a joy. He’s funny and articulate and has come out the other side and it has been a joy to watch him change and find himself. He still has his moments - but so do I and I’m 32 😂😂 *hair flips, flounces off and slams the door 😂

Have you tried asking him what his view is? If he feels anxious, if he feels like he can't speak? It sounds like he's a nice lad and so he's not being deliberately rude for the sake of it.

On the other hand, you do seem overly anxious and intense, and maybe this is his way of rebelling against you. He may not want to tackle you head on but sees that him not talking to your friends makes you go all Hyacinth Bucket so he presses this button whenever he can.

I think I would back off. Tell your friends it's just a phase and don't say things like "it's killing me". Act like you don't care one way or another and he might come around.

Just leave him alone. stop putting pressure on him, he will come out the other side in time. The more you go on about it the more he will do it.

Fgs leave the boy alone. All u are concerned about is making eye contact with everyone and their gran but not once have u suggested maybe something is wrong. It could just be teens or it could be something else. Find out!
Your so intense

If you’re that worried have him assessed.
but it sounds like your pressure and constant mentioning it is way way too much.

It’s all about you, isn’t it? How he is embarrassing you.

Just leave him alone.

You have done good work and instilled good manners in him. It’s a phase he will grow out of but only uf you back off and stop giving him a lot to resent you for.

Kevin was all I could picture reading the OP. I have a 14 year old boy and can confirm he's also a bit of an arsehole, same as his older sister was, and same as his younger sister will likely be.

They're going through puberty, their entire brains are doing a complete rewire. It will pass.

😂

If my child’s personality changed fairly suddenly, I would be checking on their mental health, yes. Especially if this change occurred during adolescence- mental health problems are sadly common in this age group.

Lots of other posters have said the same thing, and one poster has said that she was a sullen teenager and she wished her family had been more curious as to why it had happened- because there was something going on that she really needed help with.

If your response as a parent is just to tell your child off and attempt to insist they be friendlier, then I wish you good luck in your parenting journey.