To think that if you commit a male crime, you should do male time, even if you identify as a woman?

[TheAvidAmberPeer]

I know this is a sensitive topic but I’ve been thinking about how justice systems handle trans women who commit serious crimes, especially violent or sexual offences, and whether it’s fair to house them in women’s prisons. To me, if you were born male and commit a crime typically associated with male offenders, particularly one involving violence against women, it seems like common sense that you should serve time in a male facility. Identity doesn’t erase biology or risk in those cases.

AIBU to think fairness and safety, especially for vulnerable female prisoners, should come before ideology?

Why though?

They're still men.

On what grounds do you justify not treating them like other men?

C. Why do they need to go in a female prison? They can go in a separate area in a men's prison.

@LadyNorthStar "So if they have no penis, were fully transitioned and the crime did not involve any type of sexual violence against a female, then allow them space in a female prison. Simples"

So why can't they go into a separate space in a male prison? That's just as "simples" isn't it.

So you’re saying a woman is a person without a penis? Wow! Slightly offensive don’t you think. Why should a male person go into a female prison just because he’s lost his penis? He’s still male

Your intersex friend will know that intersex people are still either male or female.

You'd think so but then that wouldn't be pandering to men and respecting women.

That mess of contortions is not "simples" at all.

Regardless of where a male is in his stage of pretending to be a woman, or when he started, he is not a woman, will never be a woman, and should therefore not be incarcerated with women.

Males with males, females with females - that is simple.

Does anyone still claim that "sex is a spectrum"?

I haven't heard it for ages and assumed even the most batshit trans supporters were too embarrassed to say it!

Well on this thread the argument is that these men are women on some occasions/purposes and not women on other occasions/purposes 😂

No trans man (a woman with a sharpy 'tash) ever negotiated themselves into a male prison. Why not?

Yes. Until recently @Tandora was insisting sex was complicated and wibbly wobbly.

What nonsense though !🤣

Who do these people think they’re fooling ?
Themselves only.

Ah yes I was forgetting, we must think of the men. Sorry for the wrong thinking.

I see. Complicated and wibbly wobbly. It all makes sense now! 🤣

As I stated the Equality Act applies to Prisons and those who are incarcerated within them. A female prison is single sex, a space where biological sex determines who is housed in there, therefore no males, which transwomen are, should ever be housed in there.

It is really not a difficult to understand.

Which begs the question as to their intent. If they had actual diagnosed gender dysphoria wouldn't they have already transitioned ? I don't think they should be considered trans unless they've actually transitioned properly. I realise not everyone can afford the operations or hormones but they could work extra hours, remortgage their home etc. Surely if they were truly trans they would have known since a young age?

They cannot "transition properly". It is impossible. No human being in the history of mankind has ever changed sex.

The best they can do is take feminising hormones, have surgery to give them lumps that look a bit like female breasts and mutilate their genitals to look a bit like female genitals.

At no stage during or after this process will they become women and they should never be allowed in women's spaces.

They are men.

True. I struggle to understand how someone can be too vulnerable for a men's prison yet not be severely affected enough by their GD to bother to have surgery.

You have clearly not read or understood the Supreme Court judgment. A GRC is in no way “null and void”.

I find it baffling to see the number of people on threads like this ranting that a trans woman can never be anything other than a man. Yes, there is a tiny minority of the trans community who may have adopted a different gender identity in anticipation of being convicted in order to be housed in a preferable prison. That is a minuscule proportion of the trans community.

Honestly I have found reading this thread one of the most depressing experiences of my life. I cannot imagine harbouring so much hatred for an unknown group of people on the basis that a minuscule proportion of that group may be “faking it” because they’re criminals. What about the rest? You could draw an analogy here with racist ideology of earlier decades which was based on the assumption that all non-white people were fundamentally bad/criminal in nature. Which most people these days would not accept.

Develop your arguments to some degree of cogency, people, or maybe ask yourselves what you’d tell your child if they came out as trans. The invective on this thread is absolutely vile.

The trouble is that you’re massively missing the point.
The point is that no matter how much a man feels he’s a woman and not a man, he can never be a woman because biological sex can never be changed. Any part of him examined scientifically would reveal that he has male chromosomes and is therefore a man.The fact he’s decided to have surgery or taken female hormones will show he’s a mutilated male taking female hormones. This is nothing to do with discrimination or hate. It’s scientific fact.

You are trying to show a parallel with racism and that’s a flawed argument because people of colour are not trying to make out that they’re anything other than what they are. Men trying to be women is a form of deception that has been forced upon us. Thankfully, not any more.

I don't think anyone regardless of gender, who has committed a sexual offense against women, should be in any situation where they are potentially alone with vulnerable women.
I also don't think trans women who have committed sexual offenses against other women should be put in male prisons as then there's a risk to them from the men.. which you may be saying 'good because they did that to someone else' however in reality it's an issue because it creates chaos, endangers staff and other inmates, costs money and time etc
So that's not a good idea either.
So I think all prisons should have a small amount of space for trans inmates who have commited sexual crimes to be housed alone. And they should only be allowed round other inmates whilst supervised. This is a very small section of society so won't cost as much as constantly having to deal with the issues that would arise from housing trans people with other inmates that match their assigned sex at birth or their gender identity now.

My comment also applies to trans men who have committed sexual offenses against women. They would pose a danger if housed with women but they'd be in danger if housed with men

I think this is very complicated and cannot be solved easily.

It's not complicated at all. You go into the prison estate that reflects your biological sex. Simple.

If you are considered a "vulnerable" prisoner then you join the corrupt ex-coppers and child sex offenders in a segregation unit.

I’d know he was a man in a dark alley with the wind behind him. Passing is a lie.

What about the women? Incarcerated women are vulnerable, many are there because of a man. Many have been victims of domestic violence.

They need a safe space, they deserve a safe space and that means single sex.

I don't hate trans women, I do think they have no place in a women's prison.

Elizabeth Fry fought for prisoners, in particular women prisoners the 1823 Gaols Act imposed segregation because women were being raped and sexually assaulted.

I don't want to go back there.

And I can't understand why you think it is a good idea.