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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you commit a male crime, you should do male time, even if you identify as a woman?

1000 replies

TheAvidAmberPeer · 01/10/2025 21:09

I know this is a sensitive topic but I’ve been thinking about how justice systems handle trans women who commit serious crimes, especially violent or sexual offences, and whether it’s fair to house them in women’s prisons. To me, if you were born male and commit a crime typically associated with male offenders, particularly one involving violence against women, it seems like common sense that you should serve time in a male facility. Identity doesn’t erase biology or risk in those cases.

AIBU to think fairness and safety, especially for vulnerable female prisoners, should come before ideology?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
CorvusPurpureus · 04/10/2025 18:41

Tandora · 04/10/2025 17:39

I certainly don't need you to tell me that.

It certainly seems to be a concept you find extraordinarily challenging.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 18:41

Tandora · 04/10/2025 17:53

There's nothing I've said that makes me look callous. You have attempted to make me look callous (with the aid of some fairly hefty emotional manipulation- look the evil "TRA" is mocking rape victims!) because you don't like my opinions about sex, gender and trans people.

Trans people are not "shitting on women's rights" for asking to be accepted for who they are and accommodated in society on that basis.
Sex development- including the neurobiology of sex development - is profoundly complex and also diverse, and segregation based on a fixed and binary conception of sex is neither remotely practical nor just.

Queue someone popping to accuse me of a "word salad":

Edited

The answer to men in women’s spaces is still “no”.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 18:44

It is practical and just that men stay out of women’s spaces, and they and their enablers of both sexes are just going to have to have some respect for women’s privacy and dignity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 18:46

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/10/2025 17:50

Female people exist, female people are valid, female people (have much greater) need to be accommodated in society, sex development is simple in almost 100% of the population and if we want female only spaces we are bloody well entitled to them.

All the people clutching their pearls at the Supreme Court judgment should probably reflect upon the fact that if the judgment had gone the other way, the childbearing sex would exist in reality as a biological category, but would have no legal recognition in law whatsoever.

But because it went the way it did, female people are recognised in law and so are trans people.

Nobody is trying to erase trans people, it's the other fucking way round and we say NO.

What MissScarlett said.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 18:49

Also, you can’t get out of other people thinking you’re callous by saying “well I don’t think I look callous so ner ner.” It’s not up to you. They do.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 18:56

Anyway, I’ve more than made my point, I think. The poll is clear, men in women’s prisons is not a popular policy.

Tandora · 04/10/2025 18:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 18:49

Also, you can’t get out of other people thinking you’re callous by saying “well I don’t think I look callous so ner ner.” It’s not up to you. They do.

Nothing I have said or done makes me look callous. You and other pp's who have extreme anti- trans views don't like me participating in threads and challenging these- so you find anything that you can to twist and manipulate the narrative. It's certainly not something I'm going to take on my shoulders.

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:01

CorvusPurpureus · 04/10/2025 18:41

It certainly seems to be a concept you find extraordinarily challenging.

That people don't want to be touched without their consent?

How dare you.

I wish I could say what I want to right now, but this is mumsnet.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 19:01

That doesn’t surprise me. You have zero respect for women on MN who advocate for sex based rights for women and girls. You’re not a poster anyone takes particularly seriously on these threads, especially when you have the nerve to admonish people to be “kind” to your favoured men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 19:03

And I don’t have “extreme anti trans views”, I hold the majority view about men in women’s spaces.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/10/2025 19:04

Tandora · 04/10/2025 18:59

Nothing I have said or done makes me look callous. You and other pp's who have extreme anti- trans views don't like me participating in threads and challenging these- so you find anything that you can to twist and manipulate the narrative. It's certainly not something I'm going to take on my shoulders.

Edited

It does make you look callous.

On every single one of these threads you demonstrate that you give zero fucks about women unless they are the superior penis-y kind.

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 19:01

That doesn’t surprise me. You have zero respect for women on MN who advocate for sex based rights for women and girls. You’re not a poster anyone takes particularly seriously on these threads, especially when you have the nerve to admonish people to be “kind” to your favoured men.

You’re not a poster anyone takes particularly seriously on these threads

Again, if that were true you wouldn't be working so hard to argue with me. I can leave a thread for days and I'll have posters still @-ing me. I've had two threads started by other posters just because they wanted to argue with me. If you didn't take me seriously you would ignore me- you don't.

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:06

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/10/2025 19:04

It does make you look callous.

On every single one of these threads you demonstrate that you give zero fucks about women unless they are the superior penis-y kind.

Yeh. Again. Thats just simply not true. Shall we go round the merry go round again or are you done yet?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/10/2025 19:06

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:05

You’re not a poster anyone takes particularly seriously on these threads

Again, if that were true you wouldn't be working so hard to argue with me. I can leave a thread for days and I'll have posters still @-ing me. I've had two threads started by other posters just because they wanted to argue with me. If you didn't take me seriously you would ignore me- you don't.

Tired Wake Up GIF by good-morning

Nah, we just want to keep you talking.

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:08

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/10/2025 19:06

Nah, we just want to keep you talking.

One random poster that no one takes seriously? Why? Not really very credible is it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 19:08

I ignore you plenty of times Tandora, otherwise I’d challenge every post of yours, because they’re all manipulative, pseudoscientific nonsense.

Namelessnelly · 04/10/2025 19:08

Tandora · 04/10/2025 17:39

I certainly don't need you to tell me that.

It appears you do. You still argue that men should be allowed into female single sex spaces if they want to enter them, however much this may distress abd upset women. Men are not allowed in female spacs, even if they claim to feel like women. They are not women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 19:08

As pp said yesterday, there’s a lot to be said for Letting People Speak.

FellowSuffereroftheAbsurd · 04/10/2025 19:09

I professional know trans men who are housed in women's prisons and trans women who are housed in men's prison, and it works as well as the prison system can work at this time. Nearly all of them are entirely understanding on that and don't see moving facilities to be of benefit.

Are there things that could be improved? Absolutely, but it's not and hasn't been popular to discuss how to improve things for prisoners in a while.

Also btw- there is not really a "community" of people with sex variations in the same where as there is with trans people- there isn't the same kind of social organisation and advocacy within this group.- to the extent that there is - it is under the banner of "intersex", so statements such as "they don't like being called this, they want to be called that" are completely inappropriate and false (although gender criticals love to trot out this line in service of their own agenda). Some people feel that way, others very much do not:

I agree with the latter point that different people have different opinions on what to be called; however, I strongly disagree that there isn't a strong community of people with DSDs. It isn't the same kind of advocacy and social organization as for trans people as they are advocating for very different things and organise differently around different needs, but they have decades old and strong social organisations and advocacy groups which have brought about changes in law in many places and I've found great to work with.

I'll also point out that there are a lot of terms where it's okay for those part of a group can use it, but it isn't for those outside of it. I wouldn't put intersex firmly into that category, but I understand why some avoid it and it's not for gender agenda reasons.

it won't change the fact that trans people exist, they are valid, they need to be accommodated in society, sex development isn't simple, and segregation isn't the answer.

It's already acknowledged within the prison and wider criminal justice system that trans people - and other gender diverse people - exist and there are accommodations for them.

Sex development not being biologically simple doesn't mean segregation doesn't have benefits, just like segregation of prisoners of the same sex from each other from each other - we have separate facilities for sex offenders, for example, because it helps everyone in the system.

Age development is also not biologically simple (very few things are when we dig into them), potentially less simple than sex development from a neurobiological point of view. Age, unlike sex or gender, is a mitigating factor for sentencing so it is taken very seriously. We separate prisoners by age as well as sex. We have male prisoners many years from being a minor who will adamantly argue and possibly actually feel they are teenagers or even younger. I could see the argument that possibly neurologically that might not have developed to an adult level, even when not agreeing with the mental age argument, but that segregation, the clear cut off, helps everyone in the system. It keeps people safe.

As for being valid - trans people are one of many types of gender diverse people. Their care is already acknowledged and supported as well as anything is in the prison system. As I said, nearly all the trans people I meet housed by their sex in prison entirely understand both the practicalities and the justice in the situation - the idea that it's so invalidating for all trans people is a bit like saying everyone with a DSD hates the term intersex.

Really, for Tandora or anyone else who thinks sex is too complicated and sex segregation isn't the answer - what's your experience of the prison system and how would you divide prisoners, if at all? If you divide by gender, how will it be less complicated and safer than dividing by sex for more prisoners and more prison staff?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/10/2025 19:09

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:08

One random poster that no one takes seriously? Why? Not really very credible is it.

Because gender ideology is like a vampire (in many ways) and people like you talking are the sunlight that kills it.

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 19:08

I ignore you plenty of times Tandora, otherwise I’d challenge every post of yours, because they’re all manipulative, pseudoscientific nonsense.

I ignore you plenty of times Tandora

Certainly not my experience. if you would consider expanding that practice it would be very well received .

Namelessnelly · 04/10/2025 19:10

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:08

One random poster that no one takes seriously? Why? Not really very credible is it.

Because lurkers can see what you post. They can see the misogyny, sexism and batshittery of the gender ideologues and the utter callousness with which women are treated when they say no

JaneVapeman · 04/10/2025 19:11

It's not complicated at all re blank as I'm sure hundreds of posters have said.

Does transitioning mean lower rates of male crime ?

Unfortuntly not

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/10/2025 19:11

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:09

I ignore you plenty of times Tandora

Certainly not my experience. if you would consider expanding that practice it would be very well received .

The bullshit that you post should not be allowed to go unchallenged.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2025 19:12

Tandora · 04/10/2025 19:09

I ignore you plenty of times Tandora

Certainly not my experience. if you would consider expanding that practice it would be very well received .

l guess I’ll continue to post as I see fit 🤷‍♀️

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