Starmer thinks I am an enemy of the state

[Bumblebee72]

So we have it Starmer has declared at conference because I support Reform I am now an enemy of his Government.

Who would have thought it, a middle class British worker, now an enemy in the country I was born. And they say Reform is the party of Fascists. Yet we also now have the Home Secretary saying "In solving this crisis, you may not always like what I do. We will have to question some of the assumptions and legal constraints that have lasted for a generation and more". Maybe the Home Secretary too will be deemed an enemy of the state.

Am I being unreasonable to think this should be seen as a rallying cry to get this Government out at the first opportunity.

Are you alright hun? You say you're curious and people are explaining their reasons for wanting to vote reform; you then say they are being weird, illogical and dishonest. I'll not be engaging with your posts going forwards. I'll get more from talking to a brick wall.

There is paying for health and over paying for health.

the US system is flawed with worse outcomes - many under treated and and many over treated

yes paying more would help - the NHS is one of the cheapest systems and in terms of value for money comes out quite well- but we want a higher quality service that will cost a more

there are various ways to achieve this that don’t involve following the US system

do we raise national insurance? Being in richer pensioners for example
Do we abandon free at point of use and have some low level usage charging?
Do we have financial penalties - missed appointments
or a higher rate of national insurance for smokers and the overweight ? ( if you dont like that idea then you dont want any kind of private insurance system because that’s exactly what happens )
or some kind of European system which is cheaper than the US system and gets better outcomes but has the disadvantage that it doesn’t feed the pockets of the super rich as much and isn’t American

Reform are a right wing party not far right. The centre has moved so far to the left in the last 50 years it was would have been unrecognisable. Churchill was a liberal, considered centre left at the time but still believed in imperialism. If you stop the nonsense you might get better responses. 34% of the country are polling to vote Reform, it is not a minority view, we already have another round of mystery tax rises coming (25% on VAT seems the most likely), it will hurt.

And she did it so warmly, with a smile and a pat on the arm if I remember rightly!

the country has moved right since the post war period when social support , council homes , grammar schools for all their faults , the NHS , upward mobility were all great left wing things

the label only matters in so far as it described reforms policies so we can ignore the labels and focus on the policies

I want policies that will give the working class a better quality of life and I don’t see that reform will give us that. I see them modelling on a US system which has some of the highest rates of depression and legalised drug abuse in their working classes

I'm ok, thanks, yes. I'm just interested by the way in which people try to present their reasoning.

Maybe try talking to that brick wall. It won't question any of your illogical statements so you'll probably enjoy it.

You could even try telling it why you're really voting for Reform. It won't judge!

How can any party (Reform and the Conservatives included) win any supporters if they aren't allowed to articulate why their opponents policies are bad? Are they all supposed to say "our policies are really good but everyone else's is great to" to avoid offending anyone. His language about Reforms policies is strong, but Reforms policies are extreme. Wanting to deport people who have been living here legally for years IS extreme for example.

It's hugely unfair that Reform can cast very broad aspersions on huge numbers of ordinary people (the anti immigration rhetoric, the anti Muslim rhetoric). But anyone saying "that rhetoric is bad" is being too hurtful to Reform. It should be the other way round. Politicians should be held to a higher standard, and expect to be treated more robustly (though I agree there are limits) than ordinary people.

I agree that there is a danger of political rhetoric becoming too inflammatory. But at the same time politicians have to be allowed to talk about politics and why some political ideas are bad and some better than others. Otherwise you just sink into the neo-liberal smush that everyone says they hate.

Can I clarify - you are happy to be poorer and pay much more overall with the introduction of private health but don’t want to pay any more in taxes ? So it’s not how much money you have in your pocket but where it’s going that bothers you ?

Reform are absolutely far right. How is threatening to deport people who are legally settled in this country anything but far right.

Again, if you hold far right views, why not just admit it? Why the determination to pretend that you're not?

Where is your evidence from 4 years time that we will be poorer? Which policy makes you think that?
We are already in a system with private healthcare and NF said it will still be free at point of use

Starmer is an issue for me but I have more time for policies to the further left (and to centre right due to spending and borrowing issues). So I’m pretty open to hearing from the further left too.

Your take on getting together is valid it’s just not going to work if Starmer keeps cutting off people from asylum etc, there’s no way Corbyn and co would accept it.

Plus the voter issue is a problem. Does he want them back or use them as a prop for a supposed ‘enemy’.

Also Labour MPs can’t be happy with that asylum policy, it’s so far removed from who they are meant to be. Lucy Powell can’t be ok with it surely.

Enjoy a privatised NHS.

Urgh.
We are already heading in that direction (see the links i posted re: Labour's 10 year plan for NHS which increases privatisation) and NF said it would still be free at the point of use.

Yes, and any meaningful rights in the workplace.

The policy of moving to a us style private health system ? You know the one that costs the country significantly more than the current nhs but doesn’t treat a lot of people if that haven’t got enough money ?

That's the misnomer. It is not insurance on top of the current tax. The Reform policies are to shink the state and reduce the tax - you have to look at the policy framework in the round. It is would be an insurance model instead of the current tax we pay.

@MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack Say what you like. We can't win back those who have embraced the far right. We need a different approach.

Christ on a bike, most of the people who are looking at Reform as a viable alternative haven't 'embraced the far right'. There are tons of people in this country who are looking at what's on offer, looking at how little changes regardless of who gets in and seeing an alternative to give a chance to. There is little else in it than that. 12.8 million people voted for Jeremy Corbyn in 2017. I would hazard a guess that among the C2DE demographic there is a strong overlap between those who voted for Corbyn and those who are now entertaining Farage. PEOPLE WANT CHANGE. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Banging on about the 'far right' isn't going to win anyone over.

There was a lady vox popped in the US before the election there. She was going to vote for Trump. When asked why, she gave the best answer I've heard in response to the widespread liberal bewilderment that this fascist shift could be happening across the west. She said "There are two parties. They're both bad. But with one party, I know 100% that nothing will change. And with the other party, there is a 1% chance that things will change with Trump in charge, so I'm voting for the possibility of that tiny bit of change."

Liberals would do well to think about that. For too long, it's been the choice of a shit sandwich or a shit sandwich with sprinkles on.

I wouldn't touch Reform with a 10 foot pole. Take away the immigration issue and what have they got? Where are the detailed policies on transport, welfare, health?

But you need to be afraid! Only Nanny Starmer can keep you safe.

It's 4 years until the election. No opposition party has got detailed policies because they don't need them at this stage.

But he lies about everything as far as I can see. Ask him about his house. Why would anyone believe him I fail to understand.

In their policy framework?

ReformUKOurContractwith_You.pdf

They have nothing apart from immigration.

As opposed to Starmer who never lies, never u-turns, never does things which weren't in the manifesto or not do things which were?

Have you checked? Or are you just assuming?