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Starmer thinks I am an enemy of the state

1000 replies

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 10:14

So we have it Starmer has declared at conference because I support Reform I am now an enemy of his Government.

Who would have thought it, a middle class British worker, now an enemy in the country I was born. And they say Reform is the party of Fascists. Yet we also now have the Home Secretary saying "In solving this crisis, you may not always like what I do. We will have to question some of the assumptions and legal constraints that have lasted for a generation and more". Maybe the Home Secretary too will be deemed an enemy of the state.

Am I being unreasonable to think this should be seen as a rallying cry to get this Government out at the first opportunity.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
HedwigEliza · 01/10/2025 13:49

randomchap · 01/10/2025 13:42

The Windrush generation helped rebuild the UK after ww2. Without them and subsequent immigrants this country would be poorer, both financially and culturally

This is such a gross misreading of our history. Poorer culturally? That’s certainly debatable.

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 13:52

randomchap · 01/10/2025 13:48

Why don't you respond to what she said, instead of trying to deflect with whataboutery

Posts re the party in power now? Ik some don’t like them mentioned. They’re still impacting business now and funds. And borrowing costs.

Eyesopenwideawake · 01/10/2025 13:55

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 13:46

Nothing on Labour policies? NI? Plummeting business confidence

Really? Is that the ONLY riposte you have to @BloominNora brilliant post?

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 01/10/2025 13:56

HedwigEliza · 01/10/2025 13:49

This is such a gross misreading of our history. Poorer culturally? That’s certainly debatable.

I'm interested to know why you think immigration has not enriched our culture.

randomchap · 01/10/2025 13:56

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 13:52

Posts re the party in power now? Ik some don’t like them mentioned. They’re still impacting business now and funds. And borrowing costs.

Edited

She wrote an eloquent and informed post about the dangers of a potential Reform government and all you can do is but Labour...

You're ignoring the dangers. If you think they aren't a danger why don't you refute what she's saying.

Stop deflecting, respond.

CorneliaCupp · 01/10/2025 13:56

Violinist64 · 01/10/2025 11:04

I can't agree that lifting the two child benefit cap is the right thing to do. I think the two child cap was a really good decision and has helped curb the number of women who were having as many children as possible while using benefits as a lifestyle choice. The two child cap does not mean that you have to limit your family to two children, it simply means that the state will only help financially with two. I say this as someone who has three children.

The two child benefit cap has had virtually no impact on the number of children families are having.

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 13:56

randomchap · 01/10/2025 13:48

Why don't you respond to what she said, instead of trying to deflect with whataboutery

It is not whataboutery, to say that one of the key drivers of lower business growth is the change in NI. It is a known and predicatable relationship if it costs more to employ people less people are employed. I would suggest it is even less like whataboutery because is an attributable action the government has taken to shoot ourselves in the foot, the others airy fairly blame everyone but me stuff.

OP posts:
Daygloboo · 01/10/2025 13:57

HedwigEliza · 01/10/2025 13:49

This is such a gross misreading of our history. Poorer culturally? That’s certainly debatable.

Yes let's all go back to being just a white culture coz that was really interesting...especially the white food. Yes I really mostly love all the white food ....white potatoes, ....white cabbage, ....white bread.....hmm mm...yummy yummy....., let's paint everything white and prance around like Morris dancers with our little white wiggling sticks......ooo white white white....yummy yummy yummy...wiggle wiggle wiggle....yippee

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 13:57

CorneliaCupp · 01/10/2025 13:56

The two child benefit cap has had virtually no impact on the number of children families are having.

Unfortunately it the policy has proven that some parents just don't give a shit if their children will be born in to poverty - they just do it anyway.

OP posts:
Bloozie · 01/10/2025 13:58

BloominNora · 01/10/2025 13:43

So you want to vote for the party that pretty much caused all of the issues that you list in your second paragraph either by proxy due to it's rhetoric and impact on pushing the country to the right or directly by its members who were formally part of the Conservative government for the last 14 years ?

Inflation is impacted by global issues such as the war in Ukraine, the Israel / Gaza conflict and rising energy prices. Debt is high because of Covid, but we are in a poor position to cope with it due to low growth which is directly caused by Brexit and 14 years of austerity.

There were no serious immigration problems before 2016, before Farage decided to whip everyone up into a frenzy about a non-existent issue. Net immigration was less than 250,000, there was very little asylum claim backlog and we were returning over 10,000 people whose asylum claim failed or who had outstayed their visa every year. There were virtually no small boat crossings.

The increase in immigration numbers, and in particular small boat crossings are as a direct result of Brexit which caused the number of people we were able to return down to almost nothing, the Conservatives shutting down pretty much all of the ways of applying for asylum and intentionally letting the backlog of claims build up. We have also had to increase the number of people being given visas for key roles in the NHS and public services, because so much of our own population is not able to work due to illness.

Services have been run into the ground by the Conservative government in part due to ideological reasons, but also because they have had to spend way too much time dealing with Brexit and immigration instead of governing the country.

In the last Labour government, the amount of money borrowed increased massively, but it did not increase debt as a proportion of GDP significantly, because they spent the money on improving public services, education, raising wages and reducing the tax burden for the working and middle classes. These things led directly to increased growth, which kept the debt / gdp ratio stable. By 2010, the NHS was classed as one of the best health services in the world, our education standards were getting better and business were investing.

I presume you want to vote Reform because they appear to have the answer to these problems.

But ask yourself how many of these problems would even exist if it wasn't for Farage and his pals and Tory's who are driven by nothing more than wanting to reduce public services and government oversight so they can make more money by reducing taxes for the wealthy and privatising the NHS.

If you agree with those aims
If you want the rich to get richer through obscene tax breaks while the middle classes get even more squeezed and the working class continue to get driven into poverty,
If you want to see public services even more debilitated and handed over to private, profit making organisations to run, so that in the end, good services are only available to those who can pay for them
If you want to see our infrastructure become even more eroded through lack of investment
If you want to see our human rights reduced so that business can exploit workers and anyone the establishment doesn't like can be jailed / deported
If you want to see the rights of women, LGB and black people reduced,
If you want our freedom of speech to continue to be eroded

Then by all means, vote Reform - because all of that is exactly what will happen. We know it will, because we can see it happening in real time in the US right now.

Reform are following exactly the same play book as the Heritage Foundation / Project 2025 / MAGA crowd in the US to the letter - even down to Farage aping Trump's tendency to say outrageous things that are demonstrably false.

The scary thing is, while Trump is a puppet of Stephen Miller and Russ Vought who are the architects of Project 2025, Farage is smart - he is both the architect and the charismatic front man who knows how to get the crowd going.

This. All of this.

Bravo for taking the time to craft it.

TheEveningReport · 01/10/2025 13:59

He didn’t say that. He has finally said what he thinks though, and I agree. We need to control migration: fine. Do we need to uproot people who, through the proper channels, have set up an entire life here? Is that the sort of country we want to be then, turfing out members of our society because they are foreign? It’s racist and un-British. And if you agree with it, then so are you.

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 14:00

randomchap · 01/10/2025 13:56

She wrote an eloquent and informed post about the dangers of a potential Reform government and all you can do is but Labour...

You're ignoring the dangers. If you think they aren't a danger why don't you refute what she's saying.

Stop deflecting, respond.

The current gov’s policies are relevant. Even if you don’t like their impact. Are you as your name suggests? Your ‘respond’ made me think yeh, no.

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 14:00

randomchap · 01/10/2025 13:56

She wrote an eloquent and informed post about the dangers of a potential Reform government and all you can do is but Labour...

You're ignoring the dangers. If you think they aren't a danger why don't you refute what she's saying.

Stop deflecting, respond.

Maybe think about it like you're going on plane journey with a change over. Whilst your busy worry whether the next connection will be on time and get to where it needs to be, we are focusing on why the plane we are currently on is flying into a mountain.

OP posts:
randomchap · 01/10/2025 14:00

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 13:56

It is not whataboutery, to say that one of the key drivers of lower business growth is the change in NI. It is a known and predicatable relationship if it costs more to employ people less people are employed. I would suggest it is even less like whataboutery because is an attributable action the government has taken to shoot ourselves in the foot, the others airy fairly blame everyone but me stuff.

She was speaking about the potential dangers of a Reform government. Trying to deflect by but Labour is whataboutery.

If that's all you've got to defend your beliefs, then it's a pretty poor show

HardyHiker · 01/10/2025 14:00

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 10:14

So we have it Starmer has declared at conference because I support Reform I am now an enemy of his Government.

Who would have thought it, a middle class British worker, now an enemy in the country I was born. And they say Reform is the party of Fascists. Yet we also now have the Home Secretary saying "In solving this crisis, you may not always like what I do. We will have to question some of the assumptions and legal constraints that have lasted for a generation and more". Maybe the Home Secretary too will be deemed an enemy of the state.

Am I being unreasonable to think this should be seen as a rallying cry to get this Government out at the first opportunity.

As others have said that is not what Keir Starmer said.

I truly believe you have a right to your opinions, and to vote for whomever you like, but, which of Reform's policies do you agree with apart from immigration?

It seems to me that their other polices do not add up; I can't see where they are raising the revenue for all their plans:
They want tax cuts for the richest
They want to replace the NHS with an American insurance based system.
They wants to come out of the ECHR, and cut workers hard fought for rights
Farage does not just wasnt to stop 'illegals' (btw no person is illegal), he has said he wants to stop indefinite leave to remain; this will tear families apart and decimate the NHS.

I'm in my 50s and looking forward to retirement. We need immigration to help ensure there are people to pay into our system and fund benefits and pensions. I dont want to get to retirement age to find there is no pension anymore because there ae too few younger people paying in!
To me all the parties Farage has led, UKIP, the BREXIT party, have been single issue parties like Reform, and none of his other policies stand up to scrutiny. He is a hypocrite having a German passport, so he hasn't lost his EU benefits like the rest of us, doesn't spend anytime in his constituency, or help his constituents. His rhetoric is divisive and harmful. That's not the sort of politician I want representing me.

persephonia · 01/10/2025 14:02

Underthinker · 01/10/2025 13:38

No one in the Labour Party is getting all excited at the prospect of rounding up and deporting, en masse, people who are not white or who were born abroad.

I confess I haven't followed reform policy announcements closely, but I would guess (or at least hope) that this is an inaccurate summary of the party's stance.

My understanding was Reform would end indefinite leave to remain, while Labour would keep ILR but impose a "good citizen test" on non citizens wishing to remain.

These stances don't seem far enough apart to me to justify calling one racist and the other not.

Well, other people on this thread (friendly ginger cat) seem to think it is and that this is a good thing. So at least some Reform supporters seem to think this is what will be happening.

His promise to end permanent residency is not only for new applications but also for people who have already applied under the existing rules and been approved. So that would mean deporting masses of people many of whom have lived and contributed in this country legally for years. I don't know how that isn't mass deportations. It's certainly getting some of his supporters excited. Although Farage himself said in 2024 he thought such a thing was impossible so who knows what he really thinks.

You must see how that's different to a rule change for new applications. It just feels inherently unfair and is pandering to ideas of "remigration"/Net zero immigration isn't enough, we need to send back the people already here sort of thing. It's an escalation of his own rhetoric and more extreme even than some of the people on SYLs march said they wanted.

Bumblebee72 · 01/10/2025 14:02

This reply has been deleted

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MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 01/10/2025 14:05

It's interesting. When Farage says or implies stuff about migrants, we see lots of people defending him, saying "he is only saying what a lot of people think".

If Starmer says or implies stuff about Nigel Farage and/or Reform voters, he is only a saying what a lot of people think.

He has actually not said that Farage or his supporters are racist, but I'm sure he thinks it. Many people would agree.

Jujujudo · 01/10/2025 14:05

ainsleysanob · 01/10/2025 10:16

Look, I don’t disagree with you and I don’t vote reform. But, what I have learned on Mumsnet is that any differing of opinion is met with glee because instead of listening to you or onboarding other opinions they simply shut their ears and label you. They do this, because it’s easier for them!

They won’t like to hear it and will vehemently deny it, but this is fascism. The moment you are labelled as undesirable, hated, unstable, misinformed or whatever there is no further discussion. We should all be entitled to our beliefs as long as we are not personally infringing on the rights of others’ beliefs. Respect, discourse and positive information is the only way forward. The kind of labelling and shit throwing we are seeing from the activists is eventually going to lead to bipolar extremism. That’s how it starts.
If you look at history, every single time a government starts policing free thought, using propaganda to manipulate opinion and fear to control expression there has been a disaster resulting in expulsion, ostracisation, and in the worst cases, mass murder. Extreme beliefs, the inability and unwillingness to hear a differing opinion, distortion of facts to suit a radical agenda, all of these things are fascism. It’s not going to end well.

randomchap · 01/10/2025 14:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yet more deflection, how tedious

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 01/10/2025 14:06

I believe that voting for reform is an anti-Labour vote mainly. Most people don’t particularly want Reform in as they are going to make an absolute hash of it. What they REALLY want is Labour out and Labour to be furious as to who will oust them. It’s an anti-left vote basically.

BIossomtoes · 01/10/2025 14:06

randomchap · 01/10/2025 13:56

She wrote an eloquent and informed post about the dangers of a potential Reform government and all you can do is but Labour...

You're ignoring the dangers. If you think they aren't a danger why don't you refute what she's saying.

Stop deflecting, respond.

You’re flogging a dead horse. It’s “Yeah but Labour” or nothing from that quarter.

Thank you @BloominNora.

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 14:07

Some of that long post isn’t correct. We had equally high asylum claims pre Brexit, the numbers returned were minuscule and we took more than returned, and the EU still has a major issue with migration with that same agreement in place.

HedwigEliza · 01/10/2025 14:08

HardyHiker · 01/10/2025 14:00

As others have said that is not what Keir Starmer said.

I truly believe you have a right to your opinions, and to vote for whomever you like, but, which of Reform's policies do you agree with apart from immigration?

It seems to me that their other polices do not add up; I can't see where they are raising the revenue for all their plans:
They want tax cuts for the richest
They want to replace the NHS with an American insurance based system.
They wants to come out of the ECHR, and cut workers hard fought for rights
Farage does not just wasnt to stop 'illegals' (btw no person is illegal), he has said he wants to stop indefinite leave to remain; this will tear families apart and decimate the NHS.

I'm in my 50s and looking forward to retirement. We need immigration to help ensure there are people to pay into our system and fund benefits and pensions. I dont want to get to retirement age to find there is no pension anymore because there ae too few younger people paying in!
To me all the parties Farage has led, UKIP, the BREXIT party, have been single issue parties like Reform, and none of his other policies stand up to scrutiny. He is a hypocrite having a German passport, so he hasn't lost his EU benefits like the rest of us, doesn't spend anytime in his constituency, or help his constituents. His rhetoric is divisive and harmful. That's not the sort of politician I want representing me.

‘I'm in my 50s and looking forward to retirement. We need immigration to help ensure there are people to pay into our system and fund benefits and pensions. I dont want to get to retirement age to find there is no pension anymore because there ae too few younger people paying in!’

What a totally self-centred attitude. Yep, let’s bring in endless immigrants instead of galvanising the large number of young citizens of this country and getting them into work - who cares that their lives are made infinitely more difficult, their wages undercut? As long as your pension’s paid, eh? You’ve had your life, want to retire and you’re happy to screw over the youth of this country to enable it. What sort of country are you creating for those who come after you? Who cares, as long as you’re comfortable...

EasternStandard · 01/10/2025 14:08

BIossomtoes · 01/10/2025 14:06

You’re flogging a dead horse. It’s “Yeah but Labour” or nothing from that quarter.

Thank you @BloominNora.

I feel similarly re your posts.

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