Is there a worrying class divide with parenting?

[teaandcupcake]

I saw a tweet (and subsequent TikTok) about this and found it interesting.

The author of the tweet and the girl on TikTok were basically saying they notice the way their middle-class friends parent their small kids is screen-free, lots and lots of books, lots of time and attention. Their toddlers can read and write. In contrast, teacher friends at deprived primaries have shared stories of reception starters in nappies, children who have no idea how to turn the page of a book or use a knife and fork.

The concern being that the divide between middle-class and working-class children is going to be so vast in the future we ‘can’t even fathom it right now’

I found it interesting as the topic of reception children starting school without reaching basic milestones has been discussed on here many times before but not whether it’s class issue and what’s causing this.

There are plenty of MC people that have coke habits.

There are plenty of MC people that indulge in criminal behaviour. (It just may look a little more sophisticated)

There are plenty of middle class people that beat their wives.

👋 hello. This working class idiot got an A* in English literature. This working class idiot also has an MSc.

May not be able to "barely read themselves". You absolute silly person. Do you have any idea at all what a working class person actually is !?

I didn’t refer to working class parents… I said there’s lots of reasons parents parent in different ways 🙄

No. I meant that you can't group all.perpetrators of DV together and call them "the underclass". There are perps who are long term unemployed druggies on council estates and there are perps who are successful doctors and lawyers. Same with alcoholics, child abusers and people who commit crime. It's not a "class" issue. Its a fucked up people issue.

People of all social classes and backgrounds live "chaotic" lives and do shitty things. It's just that you mainly hear about the unemployed, poor ones.

Yeah that's what I meant. Previous posters have defined the "underclass"as people who live chaotic lives and do shitty things. But people who live chaotic lives and do shitty things come from all sorts of socioeconomic backgrounds. They're not one class in themselves.

I completely agree. There is some breathtaking ignorance on this thread about what working class people behave like.

Indeed. The aristocrat Constance Marten anyone?

I mentioned her before. In response to someone saying about underclass living "chaotic" lives and neglecting or abusing their children. Terrible woman.

Hmm I've heard that title but didn't know what it was about...sounds fascinating but hard to read...☹️

Googling, apparently Christ Stopped At Eboli is about the region of Basilicata - I've also read the Edward Banfield book & Chiaromonte is also in Basilicata, so they're about the same area.

Oh - that makes sense. It was the poorest part of Italy at that time (and that’s saying something!). The title is from a local saying that Christ never reached their region and no-one cared about them - not even God!

Of course.

But the uc is characterised by far more than one or two of these indicators. The problems they have are often over many generations and very complex. It’s

Well obviously a unemployed person isn't automatically in the underclass else all the rich yummy mummies living off husbands would count as UC as they are unemployed

Totally agree. The term wc is used very pejoratively on here sometimes and quite inaccurately.

I speak as wc child who went to university and into professional life, so have experienced both contexts.

Yes, it must have seemed like that...unsurprising they voted for Mussolini, as you say...
Yes, that area has improved somewhat now but problems are still quite endemic AFAIK. In the UK we don't luckily have the same level of divide between North/South but it is still there. I hope our government focuses on that..

I know there are these barriers...I don't want to run down the WC as a whole, and I know people have understandable reasons for struggling.

But might not refugees have SEN or lack confidence too? I would certainly feel unconfident if I were in a strange country, having escaped from war, where many might think, for various reasons, that I shouldn't be there, where I might not speak the language or not very well.

At the end of the day, people with children have taken on the responsibility. They need to try and be brave enough to reach out to whatever opprtunities/classes etc available, for their own sake, but also for the dependent children they have brought into the world.

Working class people before or those in more disadvantaged circumstances have very often had to overcome feeling unconfident/unwelcome/unsupported & been treated unkindly by those in an easier position. Caving & withdrawing from outside support will never be the answer.

I share your frustration with simplistic 'bike/bootstrap' etc narratives, but trying to improve the situation surely never causes harm. It can't be the only answer, but surely working up the courage to interact with others to get support, learn new skills can only be a good thing?

rather than remaining unoccupied & dependent on benefits, which can only cause lower self esteem & more learned helplessness?

For balance here, I am an exceptionally well educated single mum and I am making a conscious choice to work part time so that I can do hands on sahm /home education stuff for half the week (and my child is in nursery the other half) I read loads and don’t use tv more that once a week. I know that the best thing for a young is connection and play with their main attachment figure so he’s getting given this as much as I can and I’m prioritizing this over earning more and having a bigger home or more holidays etc. but he gets all of the days out and great toys etc. Don’t lump all single mums into the underclass need to live off benefits category please.

I think it's not that all single mums are underclass but that lots of underclass mums are single mums.

Exactly. My mum's single by choice & is much more like pp. But ofc many are in a very different situation.

So you're ostensibly saying that asylum seekers are somehow "better" because they engage with classes despite whatever "struggles" they have whereas the white working class don't?

Again you are putting one group against the other and that's not fair as it's noit even a level playing field.

Asylum seekers coming from a different culture cannot be compared to a poor working class mum who perhaps did badly at school (possibly undiagnosed SEN) and lacks confidence to engage with education. As I've mentioned before, asylum seekers whilst undeniably not in a good place in their lives, are in a better place than their countrymen who are still in their home country facing war and violence. They were often more 'fortunate' (if that word can even be applied to a refugee) in that they had the financial ability to purchase a plane ticket or pay people smugglers to get them out. Many of their countrymen are still there, suffering and unable to leave for various reasons, sometimes as simple as financial) Are these people who are still there somehow 'less' motivated/resourceful etc than the ones who made it to the UK?

You're putting one group above another when it is not so clear cut. There are multiple barriers, I know that in my own mother's case her shyness social.anxiety and introversion as well.as being convinced that she was "stupid" despite the fact that she was anything but (possibly as a result of that stupid 11 plus exam) she would not have taken part. My friend's husband who came here as an asylum seeker with absolutely nothing is the son of a doctor and never had any issues with confidence or taking opportunities.

Lack of confidence is a massive barrier among people you are all dismissing as the "underclass" regardless of their bravado and how loud some.of them can be. I know as I grew up around these people. And plenty of them did engage in classes and improve their lives but many didn't and it had nothing to do with laziness or lack of interest. But many lacked the confidence to.

The way the poster talked about these "local" mums was absolutely condescending and as I said before if I was one of these mothers, especially if my confidence was low and I sensed this attitude from her I wouldn't want to go to her classes either as I would feel.judged.

She seems to hold the asylum seekers in better regards so perhaps they feel more welcomed into her classed. She needs to check her own attitude, even if its unconscious.

At the end of the day trying to paint one group as better than another in this way is totally.unfair. much as "we need immigration as local people are too lazy to do menial work". Well.no that's not the case actually. But immigrants are often easier to manipulate, treat badly and pay shit wages to, especially if they are not aware of their rights....

So you're ostensibly saying that asylum seekers are somehow "better" because they engage with classes despite whatever "struggles" they have whereas the white working class don't?

Again you are putting one group against the other and that's not fair.

Asylum seekers coming from a different culture cannot be compared to a poor working class mum who perhaps did badly at school and laxka confidence to engage with education. As I've mentioned before, asylum seekers whilst undeniably not in a good place in their lives, are in a better place than their countrymen who are still in their home country facing war and violence. They were often more 'fortunate' (if that word can eveb be applied to a refugee) in that they had the financial ability to purchase a plane ticket or pay people smugglers to get them out. Many of their countrymen are still there, suffering and unable to leave for various reasons. Are these people who are still there somehow 'less' motivated/resourceful etc than the ones who made it to the UK?

You're putting one group above another when it is not so clear cut. There are multiple barriers, I know that in my own mother's case her shyness social.anxiety ans introversion as well.as being convinced that she was "stupid" despite the fact that she was anything but (possibly as a result of that stupid 11 plus exam) she would not have taken part.

Lack of confidence is a massive barrier among people you are all dismissing as the "underclass" regardless of their bravado and how loud some.of them can be. I know as I grew up around these people. And plenty of them did engage in classes and improve their lives but many didn't and it had nothing to do with laziness or lack of interest.

The way the poster talked about these "local" mums was absolutely condescending and as I said before if I was one of these mothers, especially if my confidence was low and I sensed this attitude from her I wouldn't want to go to her classes either as I would feel.judged. she seems to hold the asylum seekers in bet5er regards so perhaps they feel more welcomed.

At the end of the day trying to paint one group as better than another in this way is totally.unfair. much as "we need immigration as local people are too lazy to do menial work". Well.no that's not the case actually. But immigrants are often easier to manipulate, treat badly and pay shit wages to, especially if they are not aware of their rights....

It's not even a "surely". You're approaching this from the perspective of someone who has no idea of the barriers some of these people face . I do know. I'm not saying they shouldn't make am effort but for many its extremely complex and difficult and a very different approach would be needed than "oh they can't be bothered unlike thr asylum seekers who are so much more motivated". That will make these people feel.even more vilified and worthless.

Firstly, you need to check your unconscious biases. It seems to have hit a raw nerve with you that I said I've made observations that there is a noticeable trend between attitudes between AS women (who are from different third world countries) and local women. It is utterly laughable that you are trying to position these AS women at a place of privilege over local ones in an attempt to justify this. I have not said they are better btw, I said they as a collective group (and they are from different countries, not a monolith) have certain attitudes, that despite their very precarious life, appear to ground their DC and pass on these attitudes.
I'm not running any classes to make people feel welcome or not. If you read my previous posts you'll know I'm a volunteer on long term benefits. I'm not looking down from lofty heights. My point is that class differences have always existed, we need to get to the root cause of why the working class white boy is statistically at the bottom.

Why would it have hit a raw nerve? As I've already said I grew up poor/underclass, went to a good university and have a degree and career so it's not going to hit a raw nerve with me regarding my own experience. If you'd like to explain please?

I took every opportunity I was given.

I do however know people like the ones you describe and in most cases there are issues such as shyness, confidence, mental health anxiety , SEN or feeling judged even if hidden behind a facade of bravado and "Im not interested in baby classes let's go down the pub".

I also know asylum seekers and immigrant families as have worked with them through my church. They're really no different to us other than I would say most are from at least upper working or lower middle class backgrounds in their home countries because even the act of moving to another country requires capital even if in just the form of a plane ticket and a passport.

Those who come on a work visa will also need an occupation (usually skilled) on the shortage list, a job offer and the ability to show they have access to a significant amount of money in the bank as they will have "no recourse to public funds".

Things that the very poorest who live hand to mouth don't have access to. So you're comparing apples with oranges not apples with. apples.

Your first post was about me saying that I was putting asylum seekers 'up' at the expense of our own type of thing. That was really odd. You couldn't even address anything I even said, it was an immediate shutdown of let's not say asylum seekers might have good qualities. You've now changed tack to asylum seekers have it easier than our own - which is ridiculous. Obviously there are all sorts, some are professionals, the ones I'm talking about have no formal education, and I made that clear.
Educators have said BAME children do better than white wc children (boys particularly) in the same economic bracket, this is something known and is seen in data. We need to be able to talk about this (and parental high aspiration/expectation is always mentioned as a factor) without people coming in from the 'they must have it easier than us!' angle. Is it really so difficult to acknowledge that a black/brown/foreign person might be doing something better? Or have been raised with certain attitudes that contributes to this? I'm not being goady btw.

Lol try harder. Not once did I question that asylum seekers have good qualities. I'm very much in support of them as I said in another post. Nowhere have I "changed tack" if you loll back on all.my posts on the subject you will see that what I am objecting to is the binary comparison beyween asylum seekers as being more engaged when white working class aren't. I tried to explain some of the factors which can influence this such as a lack of confidence and emotional/social issues with the working class particularly if they haven't had a great school experience as many of the least well off in this country haven't, contrasted with the fact that it isn't necessarily a level playing field as many of the AS and immigrants who end up in the UK aren't coming from the poorest strata of society in their home countries (even if living here they are at a definite disadvantage) so will be coming at it from a different background and attitude. The poorest sectors of society in their home countries (I used the Dalits in India as an example although they may not be the best example to use) aren't usually immigrating to uk as they don't have the basic tools (passport, money for a plane ticket) to do so.

So you're not comparing two exactly identical sets of people.

As I've said making your way to another country requires some form of capital which the very very poorest dont have.

You've asked why white working class or underclass people aren't engaging in baby groups etc and I've given you reasons rather than "oh they can't be bothered". Lack of confidence, shyness, SEN issues, mental health. feeling judged, feeling its pointless to try to better themselves. I know for a fact that these are issues which prevent people like this from engaging as I grew up around it. Make if it what you will and do with this information what you will. You asked why and I told you why and also told you why you can't compare the two groups of people as you're not comparing the exact same thing.

You said you were in favour of asylum seekers, but not to the detriment of our own. If you can't hear something remotely positive about a group of people without feeling attacked, then there's a problem. There's no need for me to "do better", I've got nothing to prove, I'm not in any way way feeling inadequate. I'm willing to learn and happy to look at what others might have to improve outcomes for my future generations. Isn't that the point?
On a side note, I was flicking through Pioneer, which goes into details about why successful large scale business start ups in US (and maybe worldwide?) are disproportionately immigrants. The author gives 8 reasons why she believes this is, and it's largely down to cultural attitudes. This of course can be very triggering for insecure people, who are most horrified that a black/brown person has achieved more than them.