Is there a worrying class divide with parenting?

[teaandcupcake]

I saw a tweet (and subsequent TikTok) about this and found it interesting.

The author of the tweet and the girl on TikTok were basically saying they notice the way their middle-class friends parent their small kids is screen-free, lots and lots of books, lots of time and attention. Their toddlers can read and write. In contrast, teacher friends at deprived primaries have shared stories of reception starters in nappies, children who have no idea how to turn the page of a book or use a knife and fork.

The concern being that the divide between middle-class and working-class children is going to be so vast in the future we ‘can’t even fathom it right now’

I found it interesting as the topic of reception children starting school without reaching basic milestones has been discussed on here many times before but not whether it’s class issue and what’s causing this.

Not all mothers from the poorest sections of society are like this.

And even for those who are it is important to consider reasons why they may be rejecting classes and activities. Shyness, fearing the unfamiliar? Having spent your school years being told you are useless so not feeling confident about learning anything?

Feeling"judged"? Your tone comes off as very judgemental as if you look down on them and consider yourself superior. If I was one of these women and you were leading the class with that attitude I probably wouldn't want to go either.

You're right it does. I understood it to mean preschoolers, as many people seem to use the term interchangeably now, for some reason.

That's attitude though and sweet sod all to do with lack of work. If the parents are unemployed then they have time to spend with their kids.

Some eopleneed to change their mentality. Can't fix whole areas at a time but can change your attitude as far as your own kids are concerned.

Even in the areas with" no work" there are shops school doctor surgery etc withina certain radius. All need people to work in them.

That’s a different order of magnitude from not being toilet trained, I would say. I remember not being able to cope with shoes until later than learning to read and write.

Oh yes, I definitely agree re Woolf being snobby. There's an infamous diary entry where she sniffs at James Joyce of all people for being a 'self-taught working man- and we all know how unpleasant those are." 🙄

That actually reminds me that a few years ago I read an FWR thread on here about the Bloomsbury Group where a poster who claimed to have worked at Charleston said they had met men in the village who were warned as kids to avoid some of the men in the group for their own safety...I hope there was no reason for that, but sadly wouldn't surprise me if there were

So true. This is one of the big edges private schools have : much smaller class sizes.

I can imagine the set-up at Charleston was ‘strong meat’ for the locals to swallow!😂

Yes, this isn't about people who work hard for little money.

I was on a thread about Arthur Labinjo-Jones, and it shocked me how many people were advocating forced sterilisation of people like his mother. I would never think, that that should be a solution...but otoh when someone abusive/drug addicted keeps having babies who even if taken at birth are traumatised, it makes one wish there were some other solution. Maybe there could be a community service sentence of hard (within reason) physical labour? I don't want to live in a world where women who take heroin in pregnancy are put in prison bc that seems wrong in terms of reproductive/bodily autonomy (loom at Trump blaming paracetamol-taking for autism, it could be a slippery slope). But otoh maybe there could be consequences short of prison..

My husband and I both work full time.

We are working class I guess and do probably let our kids have too much screen time out of pure exhaustion but our 2 year old can read and we spend a lot of time with our 11 year olds education doing 11+ prep.

Im not sure what the norm would be for people in our income bracket but I do feel very time poor overall which leads to the screen time.

No, I think this is where we’re misunderstanding each other.

An unemployed person is not necessarily a member of the uc.

The uc is specifically defined by the characteristics I listed above (inc involvement in petty crime, anti-social behaviour , neglecting children, v low educational attainment, longterm inter generational unemployment and in many cases actually being unemployable. They are notoriously resistant to interventions too.)

You know best about where you were brought up but going from what you’ve said on here the people around you sound more like wc people in bad times - high unemployment. They are absolutely not the same as the uc. The difference is huge.

Oh - forgot to list high likelihood of addiction problems too - smoking, drugs, alcohol and gambling.

Yes, people in the upper classes or middle classes can be just as dysfunctional. The difference is that they are more likely to have a support network who will step in if they treat their children very badly.

Do those people who come already have a marketable skill though? I agree it should be possible to get a job

I wish Reform etc types who demonise asylum seekers would read stuff like this. I know a lot have valid concerns about migrants & I do think immigration is much too much now. But it's clear from stories like yours that clearly some asylum seekers behave better than people in an easier situation here...

Aaarrrggghh!

Not I’m the upper class, mc or wc perhaps. You get all kinds of people but within a certain range,

But the uc is absolutely defined by anti-social behaviour. Some pps on here think it’s the same as being poor, unemployed or uneducated. It isn’t! Read what Marx had to say about the Lumpenproletariat, or what more recent sociologists have written about this phenomenon. It’s quite specific and not just a version of the wc.

in the upper class, not I’m the upper class! Bloody autocorrect…apols.

I think you've misunderstood tho. CoffeeCantata said specifically that she doesn't mean underclass are just people on benefits, she means they're people on benefits to subsidise a lifestyle of child-beating, extremely dirty houses, substance abuse etc Sometimes at least partly due to mental illness/low IQ, sometimes they're just frankly evil people.

I think the issue is that people are unclear if you mean people living on benefits but not doing anything like child abuse are still in the underclass. I think personally they should be classified differently.

Further, I mentioned Elena Ferrante's My Brilliant Friend set in the 50s Rione Luzzati district of Naples earlier...as well as the 1958 Edward Banfield study of the real life southern Italian area of Chiaromonte.

The people there work, but are focused on honour, scorn education, women and children are beaten, alcoholism common etc - so are they still underclass? I think yes...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThe<u>Moral</u>Basis<u>of</u>a<u>Backward</u>Society&usg=AOvVaw3XgVqxIem44dRbONn6PYRt&ved=2ahUKEwix0YHzy4qQAxWiRkEAHaQMLRwQmhN6BAgZEAc" rel="nofollow" target="blank">MoralBasisofaBackwardSociety&ved=2ahUKEwix0YHzy4qQAxWiRkEAHaQMLRwQmhN6BAgZEAc&usg=AOvVaw3XgVqxIem44dRbONn6PYRt

Why do we keep hearing the NHS is understaffed then??

Im sure im probably underclass or at least was until very recently (married a man with a good job) both my parents unemployed dad drank too much had my first child at 16, like I said though good parents just had a lazy dad and I don’t consider my mother lazy she did everything in the house and no one calls a married sahm lazy so why say it about her. So I’m not looking for sympathy here I wasn’t abused or neglected

As well as insultingly being called underclass I’ve also insultingly been called middle class on here (on threads where I voice my opinion on some random topic without mentioning my back story)

One thing I’ve never been called on here is working class

@CleopatraSelene it is understaffed but the problem is trusts do not have enough money to pay all the nurses and other medical staff needed.

I met someone who trains nurses who told me her students are ending up working in retail after they graduate because it’s better paid than care work - they can’t find nursing jobs.

Ah, I see, sorry. We need to value nurses & care workers more, pay-wise...

I mean when you talk about people who are addicted to drugs, live in squalor, commit crime and beat their wives and kids I tend to think of just people who are basically dysfunctional whether as a result of personality disorder/mental health or past trauma or just being downright evil people. They don't necessarily come from any social class not do they form a class in and of itself although they may be found on the margins of society if their issues mean they are unable to hold down jobs and full integrate into it.

Constance Marten, who I've already mentioned, is an example of someone who lived a dysfunctional life despite coming from an upper class background. The Turpins in America with their 13 kids in a squalid house of horror weren't poor or uneducated. He was financially successful with a lucrative career I beleive ....

Again you are lumping being poor with being deviant or dysfunctional and it isn't necessarily the case.

Again, people of all social classes and backgrounds can be found living this way, usually as a result of addiction, mental health issues or trauma or, as you said sometimes just being evil. It doesn't comprise a "class". It's just dysfunction.

People like this are admittedly more likely to be poor if they are unable to work or function normally in society but its nor a class in and of itself.

I agree. The idea that as a disabled woman, who lost a good career due to poor health, I am considered Underclass is abhorrent.