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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Reform voters may not be racist but they are at least dangerously naive

1000 replies

ChocolateMagnum · 29/09/2025 08:00

AIBU to accept that some Reform voters may not actually be racist, but to be pretty certain that, if they're not, they are at the very least dangerously naive?

I thought we all got taught at school about how fascism took over in 1939s Germany? And there's so much out there at the moment showing why we are at a dangerous turning point in history again.

Why is it that the so-called non-racist Reform voters not see that they are aligning themselves with a covertly racist and fascist-leaning party and that their support risks tipping the balance towards a fascist dictatorship in the UK?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
StandFirm · 29/09/2025 12:31

HedwigEliza · 29/09/2025 12:29

Again, racist comments and doubling down on it.

I defy you to prove to me that the guys in this administration were the best qualified out there. So what may have been the key criteria? Genuine question? I think loyalty to Trump, number one, and yes, being a white dude. It's how it comes across, sorry that makes you uncomfortable.

HedwigEliza · 29/09/2025 12:32

PandoraSocks · 29/09/2025 12:29

"The authorities he alerted did not turn up until the next day. Mr Gibson said: "By the time they came down the bloke had gone. He must have thrown the carcasses away (how convenient that the swan murderer was so meticulous about tidying up!) There were bits of bone and some feathers but there were no bones left." The scene was visited later by Kevin Garten, a volunteer from Shepperton Swan Sanctuary.

He said: "Those carcasses were not stripped by animals. I know what foxes do. These were meticulously stripped and the head and neck were still attached - a fox would have had it straight off.

"I cannot definitely say it was human but I can definitely say it was no animal."

How did Kevin know the carcasses were meticulously stripped given that all traces of the carcasses were removed before he visited the scene? The story has more holes than a a Warburton's crumpet.

No one was ever arrested or charged. So we have no idea if this man's accusations from 13 years ago were true. But you seem determined to believe that migrants are routinely eating swans, so I will leave it there.

I will happily rethink my statements when there is actual proof of swan-eating.

Edited

I’m not determined to believe it; you’re determined to ignore inconvenient information at all costs.

HedwigEliza · 29/09/2025 12:35

StandFirm · 29/09/2025 12:31

I defy you to prove to me that the guys in this administration were the best qualified out there. So what may have been the key criteria? Genuine question? I think loyalty to Trump, number one, and yes, being a white dude. It's how it comes across, sorry that makes you uncomfortable.

If doesn’t make me uncomfortable, but it certainly does make you appear racist when you defy me to prove they’re the best qualified people. You’re arguing in favour of meritocracy, I take it? What’s your thoughts on affirmative action?

PhuckTrump · 29/09/2025 12:36

LlynTegid · 29/09/2025 08:34

I agree with the naivety, I expect many do not realise what would happen to the NHS especially and other public services.

Agreed. Many parallels with the farmers in Alabama who are getting exactly what they voted for, yet are now crying (literally) about it. I have never before seen so many so unhappy to get what they voted for.

  • “Stop giving foreign aid.” Done. USAID is dead. However, USAID was buying the Alabama farmers’ crops to ship abroad to countries in need. Those farmers no longer have customers. They got what they voted for.
  • Donald said he couldn’t wait to issue tariffs. Done. They’re now in a trade war with China, who are refusing to buy the crops from Alabama that they used to. They got what they voted for.
These Alabama farmers are now begging for government bailouts in Town Halls with their elected officials. Trouble is…Republicans don’t believe in government bailouts, ie, evil socialism. They’re more the “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” crowd.

I’ll say it again: I have NEVER seen voters so upset to be getting Exactly What They Voted For.

Take heed. This could be us in 4 years.

MaidOfSteel · 29/09/2025 12:36

StandFirm · 29/09/2025 12:25

Except we were right about the shit show that Brexit would be (it was based on factual evidence) and we will sadly be right in this case again.
It's not about belittling or any such bullshit, more like trying to avoid a sleepwalker stepping off a cliff, pointing to the gap in the ground but being powerless to make them listen. It's just infuriating watching a whole swath of the population blindly follow Nigel-the-piper to their doom (especially as it means we all fall off the same fucking cliff).

You’re doing it again, you just can’t or won’t stop! You are belittling and creating the us/them atmosphere that makes this such an ugly country to live in just now.

And what makes you think you know how I voted in the Brexit referendum????

IsEveryUserNameBloodyTaken · 29/09/2025 12:36

Uggbootsforever · 29/09/2025 10:46

More or less fascist than the Islamic countries in your view?

Exactly this and this is what is concerning people, not those trying to misdirect by quoting Nazi Germany from the 1930’s.

Caps44 · 29/09/2025 12:37

Well - Labour is hurting our finances significantly, especially on the VAT for school fees. All other major parties have said they will remove VAT on fees. Unfortunately both the Lib Dems and Tories have zero chance of winning, so we have to vote Reform and we came to the UK many in the previous century.....

TorroFerney · 29/09/2025 12:37

angelos02 · 29/09/2025 11:08

I wonder how many people that are so anti-Reform are actually directly affected by mass illegal immigration as some PP's clearly are. I live somewhere unaffected (yet) but can see where this is going.

And that’s the issue isn’t it. Someone recounts their experience of feeling unsafe around these men for good reason and some elements of the left shoot that down as racism. And then we wonder why people feel the only choice is reform.

EasternStandard · 29/09/2025 12:37

StandFirm · 29/09/2025 12:25

Except we were right about the shit show that Brexit would be (it was based on factual evidence) and we will sadly be right in this case again.
It's not about belittling or any such bullshit, more like trying to avoid a sleepwalker stepping off a cliff, pointing to the gap in the ground but being powerless to make them listen. It's just infuriating watching a whole swath of the population blindly follow Nigel-the-piper to their doom (especially as it means we all fall off the same fucking cliff).

Many are feeling this about Labour. Pre GE compared with now.

PoppyFleur · 29/09/2025 12:40

StandFirm · 29/09/2025 12:25

Except we were right about the shit show that Brexit would be (it was based on factual evidence) and we will sadly be right in this case again.
It's not about belittling or any such bullshit, more like trying to avoid a sleepwalker stepping off a cliff, pointing to the gap in the ground but being powerless to make them listen. It's just infuriating watching a whole swath of the population blindly follow Nigel-the-piper to their doom (especially as it means we all fall off the same fucking cliff).

This.

Sadly, the further a society moves away from truth and facts, the more abuse will be heaped on the ones telling the truth.

Nigel Farage was an MEP for more than two decades, what did he actually achieve in all that time?

StandFirm · 29/09/2025 12:41

HedwigEliza · 29/09/2025 12:35

If doesn’t make me uncomfortable, but it certainly does make you appear racist when you defy me to prove they’re the best qualified people. You’re arguing in favour of meritocracy, I take it? What’s your thoughts on affirmative action?

Yes, meritocracy is exactly what I'm talking about and I am saying it doesn't seem to be on display here. So you can try and flip the script by calling me racist and whatnot, it's not working. Racism is precisely to choose an administration based on certain demographic attributes over hard skills and experience.

TorroFerney · 29/09/2025 12:41

PandoraSocks · 29/09/2025 11:38

How do we deal with children born into families with these beliefs when we would view the treatment of their daughters as child abuse?

That is a very strong assertion. What exactly do you mean?

why Are you pretending you don’t know? It’s really odd not to acknowledge what goes on. Your attitude is what will get reform elected, can you not see that?

DoinFineIThink · 29/09/2025 12:42

MaidOfSteel · 29/09/2025 12:36

You’re doing it again, you just can’t or won’t stop! You are belittling and creating the us/them atmosphere that makes this such an ugly country to live in just now.

And what makes you think you know how I voted in the Brexit referendum????

Where has that poster said anything about you personally in that post you're quoting of theirs, and how you voted?! Why take it so personally if it doesn't apply to you?
This whole discussion/debate is so stupid as you can't say anything or call anything out without someone going ", are you calling me a racist?" or some such crap.
If you are, at least own it. If you're not, cool, it doesn't apply to you then does it

WolfingtonBear · 29/09/2025 12:42

I really do miss the laugh emoji some days…

AxMxPfan · 29/09/2025 12:46

ChocolateMagnum · 29/09/2025 08:00

AIBU to accept that some Reform voters may not actually be racist, but to be pretty certain that, if they're not, they are at the very least dangerously naive?

I thought we all got taught at school about how fascism took over in 1939s Germany? And there's so much out there at the moment showing why we are at a dangerous turning point in history again.

Why is it that the so-called non-racist Reform voters not see that they are aligning themselves with a covertly racist and fascist-leaning party and that their support risks tipping the balance towards a fascist dictatorship in the UK?

OP, I feel exactly as you do. I fear fascism, the erosion of democracy and the decline of our culture… with the twist that I 💯 agree with Reform and believe that people with opinions like yours are the ones being naive. Let me explain why.

I am from Turkey and am from a religious minority group there. In 1993, Islamists attacked and burned down Madimak hotel in Sivas province, killing 37 young intellectuals from my religion who were gathered for a special event. Turkey is a country riddled with sectarian violence and religion plays a big role in this. Christians, Jews and Alevis have managed to live side by side in peace and the Sunnis haven’t. They see us as infidels and constantly seek to gain dominance over us and they have succeeded.
In 1923, Ataturk created the Turkish Republic and one of its tenets was the separation of mosque and government. In fact, it forced modernisation on every citizen by suppressing religion in the hope that people would become secular. It worked for a while but eventually, secular families ended up having fewer children (2-3) from the 60s onwards with the introduction of the contraceptive pill and greater urbanisation. Rural extremist/conservative Muslim families had on average 7 children and their numbers ballooned. They started using democracy to gain national power and in 2002 became the ruling party after years of having Erdogan in the position of Istanbul mayor. They relentlessly pursued power by pretending to be meek and moderate when they were a political minority. When they came to power, they wooed voters with economic growth and development and intimidated secular Muslims by reminding them that they were Muslim first and foremost. They created divisions and polarised the population. When I went to live there in 2010, it was a fragile democracy/anocracy but now Erdogan has consolidated so much power that it’s not even an anocracy, it’s practically a dictatorship. With so much power, they then plundered the country and were very corrupt. Now, the economy is in tatters, with ridiculous inflation decimating people’s incomes.

I grew up in the UK and am grateful for everything in the West but I fear that it will succumb to Islamism. There are already 85
islamic Councils in the UK that ‘advise’ (in the future they would simply dictate) people based on sharia law. Sharia law states that a woman’s testimony is half of a man’s, that adulterers should be stoned, that apostates should be killed…

I don’t think western liberals or lefties can even get their heads around how unbearable it is to live in an Islamic country. Sure, it’s not as bad as North Korea in places like Saudi Arabia or Iran but it’s because people still have the freedom to visit the West and have access to media that connects them to western ideas and thoughts so it’s like having a window that opens whereas North Korea is like living in an underground bunker with an abusive family member with no hope of escape.

There is something fundamentally wrong with Islam and it can never be fixed because it is impossible to reform it due to its own blasphemy laws and customs. In the West, they seek to tie our hands and gag us with the made-up term ‘Islamophobia’. When we criticise it, we are met with anger and hatred from Muslims and a similar reaction from leftists who gaslight us. When we make very compelling, logical arguments against the religion, we’re lied to by ordinary Muslims who practice ‘taqiyya’ to further the cause of Islam. We’re dealing with a slippery eel that refuses to look you straight in the eye and instead attacks and disorients its opponent.

I am betting that this comment will get deleted.

The strange thing is, I’m not against immigration at all. I’m just against immigration from that religion. I voted for Remain because I love Europeans. I have nothing against people from the Far East, Latin America or Africa coming here in the millions and putting a strain on services or bringing their own culture with them… as long as they are not of a religion that wants to destroy the West.

PandoraSocks · 29/09/2025 12:47

Bumblebee72 · 29/09/2025 12:17

That ok then. Fine to violently strangle swans as long as you don't actually eat them. WTF.

I didn't say that, did I? The guy is clearly a horrible bastard.

Absentosaur · 29/09/2025 12:47

ChippyDale · 29/09/2025 11:38

I disagree. I think anyone who doesn't see millionaire Farage as a big fat racist is completely thick.

Aw self reflection is good habit to get into.

People aren’t seeing Farage himself as any sort of saviour. They are hearing what he is saying, and he is listening to them. Perhaps that’s too nuanced for you.

Flyingintotheunknown · 29/09/2025 12:47

ChocolateMagnum · 29/09/2025 08:29

  1. I'm not saying people can't have an opinion
  2. I also haven't said that they are necessarily wrong in worrying about immigration
  3. I also haven't said that the main political parties are getting it right

What I've said is that Reform and all that goes along with it, is a slippery slope and I think people who trust that they are the answer are dangerously naive.

You’ve basically written every reform supporter off as ‘naive’. That to me is you saying they are somehow wrong because they don’t share your opinion. Sorry but you’re just backtracking and changing your wording around slightly to make it appear like you weren’t trying to say something you did.

Rewis · 29/09/2025 12:49

It is the same thing that is happening across the europe. The traditional and socially acceptable parties are just not doing it for the average person and they are looking for answers elsewhere. Reform voters will have a wide range if voters who will vote for them for different reasons. Some truly believe they will fix stuff. But then there will also be people who have lost faith towards labour so they need to try something else.

So many european countries are having the same thing happening

PandoraSocks · 29/09/2025 12:51

TorroFerney · 29/09/2025 12:41

why Are you pretending you don’t know? It’s really odd not to acknowledge what goes on. Your attitude is what will get reform elected, can you not see that?

What will get Reform elected is people voting for them. My asking for clarification of a statement on MN, which the poster happily provided, will make zero difference to how anyone votes.

Digdongdoo · 29/09/2025 12:53

Absentosaur · 29/09/2025 12:47

Aw self reflection is good habit to get into.

People aren’t seeing Farage himself as any sort of saviour. They are hearing what he is saying, and he is listening to them. Perhaps that’s too nuanced for you.

Edited

He's not so much listening to them, as telling them what they want to hear.

ChocolateMagnum · 29/09/2025 12:54

EasternStandard · 29/09/2025 11:08

It was in my post.

Since you’re asking again. You not liking the outcome of the next GE doesn’t mean we don’t have a democracy.

Edited

I agree entirely. However, not acknowledging the risk of an end to democracy of Reform getting in is naive.

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 29/09/2025 12:54

ChocolateMagnum · 29/09/2025 12:54

I agree entirely. However, not acknowledging the risk of an end to democracy of Reform getting in is naive.

Can you back this up with anything?

Nutmuncher · 29/09/2025 12:54

Curious to ask what you believe has happened to the NHS and public services under past present and future Lab or Con governments? Because so far their track records show they’re not exactly the best custodians of them either given the state of the NHS and public services today.

Reform supporters are those now experiencing a decline in care standards, long wait lists and many other issues with the NHS. A gamble with a party that may shift the status quo is something they’re now open to leaning towards.

Rightly or wrongly people vote in response to their personal circumstances and experience, broken promise after broken promise of previous governments and a visible shift in how peoples towns and high streets look is the ideal catalyst for a new kid on the block.

Maybe fresh vision is needed?

littleburn · 29/09/2025 12:55

I don’t disagree OP, but I think it then rests with centre left parties to step up and have those difficult conversations and address concerns. I fear we’ve had too many years of labelling people as bigots to pull it back now and have made it very easy for far right parties to step into that space.

As for 1930s Germany, I think it’s broader than just Reform. Many on the progressive Left are also being very ‘naive’ in aligning themselves with Islamist-fascist groups, with whom they have no common cause save for on the one issue. The ‘anti-Zionism’ of some on the Left today is also very reminiscent of 1930s Germany.

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