To feel sorry for my friend's daughter?

[Feelingsorryforher]

My friend has been through an incredibly difficult decade. I won't give details because it isn't my place to share her story, but it has been very tough. I have done my best to support in different ways throughout, both emotionally and practically. My friend herself has been amazing...strong, positive and resilient in the face of some tremendous challenges. I really admire her.

Recently, she has made a decision to cut her young adult daughter out of her life. The daughter is toxic in many ways, and her behaviour has been truly dreadful, causing my friend a huge amount of difficulty and stress. Again, I'm not going to provide details because it isn't my story to tell, but suffice to say that I totally understand my friend's decision and I respect that she has to do what she feels she needs to do to preserve her own sanity and protect her younger dc, having previously turned her life upside down in order to try and support the older daughter. I have not questioned my friend's decision or expressed any doubts about it to her.

But actually, I have been struggling with her decision, because I find myself feeling very sorry for the daughter who is now desperately trying to mend the relationship. The pity that I feel is despite the fact that I still feel incredibly angry with the daughter for the way that she has treated her mum. I just can't imagine ever cutting off my dc in a million years. Then again, my dc wouldn't ever behave in the way that my friend's daughter has behaved, so it's a very different relationship.

My friend will not engage with the daughter's attempts to fix things, and I totally understand why. The daughter has a history of being manipulative, and this may just be more of the same. But at the same time, the daughter herself is extremely vulnerable and very messed up, and I can't help not feel sorry for the fact that she has effectively cut off the only solid source of support that she had.

The daughter has now contacted me directly to ask her to intervene with her mum. I will tell her that I definitely can't do this, but I'm wondering if I should offer to at least meet with her myself as she is in a very bad place and I'm worried about her - she has a history of self harm. Should I ask my friend if she is OK with me offering to meet with her daughter, or would it be better off just telling the daughter that I can't get involved? I don't think I would want to have contact with the daughter without sharing this with my friend, as that would feel disloyal.

I have known this young woman since she was a baby, and I had a lot of contact with her when she was growing up. I am under no illusions about how toxic she can be, but I also recognise that she has been through some very tough times herself. WWYD in this situation?

YABU - tell the daughter that you can't get involved and ask her not to contact you again
YANBU - ask your friend if she would mind you offering to meet with the daughter to check on her wellbeing

Agree with this.

Yes this is a really good point. Are you afraid that your friend would manipulate you by withdrawing her friendship if you support her child in any way?

Be honest with your friend, say her daughter has reached out and would she be open with you meeting or having a chat with her. Her answer will tell you what to do. If she's opposed to it then best stay out of it otherwise you'd be risking your friendship.

YABU for your feelings, but feelings arent facts.

You say your friend is a good parent, loves her daughter and is only doing this to protect her other children. I dont doubt whatever you feel, your friend feels it amplified. That this daughter is toxic and manipulative.. id worry shes using you to manipulate her mother again.

Your friend went through bad times and isnt those things so this woman could choose to be better and hasnt. You cant love her enough to fix her. Id maybe say to her to do the things she promising then fix her relationship with her mum, not offer more promises that sound like they werent honoured.

Without the details its hard to say what id do. But tbh I think you may have to certainly short term pick a side. Either you support your friend, accepting nothing more can be done until her daughter helps herself. Because I think anything else will impact your friends ability to stay strong. Or you pick trying to help this woman, but from what you say I cant see how you could expect to succeed where her mum failed

Really? this woman was a child. Not a woman at all. She lacked a woman’s understanding or resilience or capacity not to self-blame. That’s the point.

Going NC with a relative especially a child is never done lightly. I understand your concern however your friend will have done this to preserve her sanity. It’s very very tough but never an easy decision. Until you have lived that life you can’t begin to understand. I apologise, I mean this in the kindest way x

I don't think I have said that she was an "exemplary parent", but I do think she has been a very good parent in very difficult circumstances. Absolutely, she did a terrible job of choosing a father for her children, but she only realised this in hindsight and she couldn't exactly change it at that point. I think she also stayed with him for far too long, but that was primarily because of a mistaken belief on her part that staying would be in the best interests of her dc. As soon as she realised that it wasn't, she left.

My friend is no angel, she is a human being who has no doubt got things wrong over the years. She would be the first to acknowledge this. At the same time, I have seen how unbelievably hard she tried. It isn't the case that she simply offered to pay for therapy and the dd declined so she just left it. She spent years and years pushing for more support via CAMHS, the school, the NHS and local charities etc, advocating for her dd and trying just about everything imaginable to get her the support that she needed. And she continued to encourage her dd to engage with relevant services after she became an adult, but inevitably, at that point, it was the dd's decision as to whether or not she wanted the support.

I can't tell the full story here, so people will inevitably draw their own conclusions, and that's fair enough. Suffice to say that, while she has no doubt made mistakes, I honestly don't think my friend could have tried much harder to get help for her dd to address the issues, and it almost broke her in the process. Her decision now is partly to protect her younger dc and partly to protect her own wellbeing. Having sacrificed her own health to the extent that she did in order to get the oldest child through to adulthood, I really don't feel that I can judge her for taking a step back now. She has reached her limit for the time being and I respect the choice that she feels she has had to make.

I just want to ensure that I do the right thing in relation to her daughter.

Too many responses to be able to reply to everyone, but thank you to all who have shared their thoughts and experiences. You have all given me lots to think about. I'm very sorry for those of you who have experienced something similar to my friend.

I have decided that I'm just going to tell my friend that her dd has texted me, and ask her what she wants me to do about it. I will offer to meet with the dd if she feels comfortable with me doing so, but if she is ok with that, I will only meet the dd once on neutral territory and I will make it very clear that it's just a one-off meeting to help point her towards other sources of support, that I can't help to fix things with her mum and I can't offer any support on an ongoing basis myself.

Just briefly - the fact that she can’t change her mistakes doesn’t mean that they did not happen or did not impact that child, whose protection she was responsible for. the fact that the mother cannot turn back time does not mean she is absolved of responsibility for that impact.

No one wants to be a shit parent, but we all are to varying degrees, and in extremity in particular we have to keep trying to fix our errors. Even when - particularly when - those errors result in or provoke a difficult/manipulative or catastrophic response from the child they have damaged.

cutting a child off completely when the child is begging to stay in contact is unbearably cruel in those circumstances, although it may be necessary to tightly control the contact arrangements to protect one’s ability to parent the other children- who have also been let down.

but what are the reasons for effectively forbidding you to meet with her child that you would be feel comfortable agreeing to?

as hard as it is, op, I don’t think loyalty to an old friendship - or your own potential loss if the friendship were to go south - can be your guiding light here. There is something like a moral imperative.

I also think the extent to which she has communicated ‘for the time being’ to her child is really critical to your decision. If the Dd feels that this is temporary it’s possibly reparable.

Why don't you support the DD as a friend, directly? Without involving the mother? If the DD needs support, why not give it to her yourself, without adding to the mother's burden?

Thanks. I am not trying to minimise the impact of various things on the child, and of course, the parent has to take responsibility. But I believe that my friend did fulfil this responsibility over many years, continuing to support her dd in the face of some truly awful behaviour for a long time before the mum cut contact... surely, at some point, an adult child also has to take on some responsibility for helping themselves?

I do recognise that people on here don't have access to the full picture, so it's hard to explain how bad things were, but I think she reached the point where she needed to cut her eldest off simply to be able to function enough to be able to parent her other dc. It's an awful decision to have to make, but I will not judge her for it because I haven't had to live her life.

It sounds like you have come to a decision - I just wanted to say that you have every right, whatever your friend's views here, to act as your heart and conscience dictate, and if that involves meeting with the young woman, even without her mother's consent, that is what you should do.

I think people on here sometimes make the mistake that a strong difference of opinion between friends must inevitably lead to the cessation of the frrindship in question. I have not found this to be true in my experience.

I am blessed to have three very close female friends, and over the years we have disagreed over issues, some very significant and central to one or more of our happiness, numerous times. With each I am able to speak frankly if I disagree with a course of action they are following, and they do the same for me, and nobody ever cuts anybody off.

In each case, if I perceived one of their children (all quite dear to me to differing degrees) to be in emotional or physical danger, I would definitely intervene, even if that child was estranged from his or her mom at that point, I would certainly act to help them. I would risk my friend's anger in doing so perhaps, but ultimately our love is strong enough that I would not feat any of my good friends would cut me off, for acting as my honest conscience directed me.

I would intervene in part out of general human concern, and affection/sympathy for the child themselves; but the strongest motivation would be my love for my friend. For if any of my friends became estranged from one of their children, for any reason than the mosr extreme (believing beyond doubt that the child was a practising paedophile - I can't imagine any other provocation strong enough to lead to a desire for permanent total estrangement). I would feel confident that at some point my friend's feeling would change - and I would therefore be eager to ensure that said child remained safe, alive and and at liberty, so that at some point a reconnect could be achieved.

I think the issue is "the daughter herself is extremely vulnerable and very messed up" this needs to be addressed then she will be more compliant.

this is a really naive view. I doubt anyone knows better than the mother that if the daughter were less messed up, she would be easier to deal with. That's a given, surely.

The assumption on here that some random lady can drift in and fix what the mother and other services couldn't over the course of a chat or two is just bats.
Yes, the daughter may well be genuinely traumatised, distressed, in deep emotional pain. That can be true. Unfortunately it doesn't negate the fact that she might also be very dangerous, and that people are reasonable in wanting to put distance between themselves and her.

It sounds like the mum moved hell and high water to try to help her child. Going NC is a last resort and not one any engaged parent chooses lightly. It's very easy for random MNers to pop up saying "here's an idea: maybe she needs help!!!" when they aren't the ones in the impossible situation of trying to find and access that help.

Whilst it sounds like your friend has tried to reverse the damage that has been caused, via outside agencies, it does sound like she has completely failed her child to be honest op.

She realised ‘too late’ the harm that was happening to her eldest child in the early years. She has compounded that harm by going on to have other children, therefore diluting her ability to really support her eldest dd whom has come to terrible harm on her watch.

The young adult has now lost both parents, and is an orphan in the sense she now has no parents at all. I think it’s unnecessary to cut her own child off given the back story - cruel and possibly the final straw for her dd.

Your friend could have redrawn the boundaries, gone low contact and taken a huge step back without actually cutting off her own child. Regardless of what she has been through with her dd - the damage she is doing now to her dd could be irreparable.

Going low contact, getting more support for herself and for her dd would have been better for everyone involved.

No one can be surprised if the worst case scenario unfolds given the self harm, and the background and the abject total abandonment this young adult will now be experiencing.

Being complicit in such cruelty and supporting your friend to take such harmful action is matter for you.

I would suggest you follow your own conscience, your own moral compass - if you are so afraid to lose the friendship then maybe you need to look at that as well?

Any decent mother would want their child supported, even if they can’t do so themselves. If your friend declines this will speak absolute volumes.

What a terribly sad situation. Possibly one that could end very badly. The dd has been subjected to significant ACEs and it’s no wonder she is struggling now. She has been failed throughout her childhood and not received adequate support or help.

I hope your friend can live with her decision. I would be taking a big step back from this friendship in your position is my conclusion op.

I think this is spot on, OP
I wish you well. You are very empathic. I salute you. This is a tricky situation.

Im saying thisn based on the limited info we have, if OPs explanation is accurate its ridiculous to think her friend isnt also worried for and guilty about whats happened with her daughter. That her mother is behaving like this because the daughters behaviour isnt ok

OP says her friend was a good supportive, rxcellent parent. That the daughter is in her early twenties, (not a child) who is toxic and manipulative and although not violent deliberately did something to put one of her younger siblings in danger that she isnt sorry for. And if she has no support network (OP doesnt know of one) its due to her actions. At some point you have to take responsibility, im not saying its the daughters fault she is like she is necessarily but it is her responsibility to address it and if she instead is a risk to siblings I can understand the choice her mum made.

Now assuming all thats accurate, and without more info then yes I do the daughter is old enough to do better and wouldnt get involved if I wanted to prioritise my friendship. I do think the mother will also be worried about her choice. But if the siblings need protection I think its right until the daughter shows shes followed through with these promises.

And if it was a 20 odd year old man whod put his sibling in danger deliberately and his mum made the decision I dont think as many people would be saying poor him, hes the child, help him out.

Thank you for the time that you have taken to share your thoughts. With respect, though, I don't think you can possibly make the judgement that my friend has "completely failed her child". I'm sure you mean well, but you don't know the whole story, or even half of it, because it isn't my place to share that, and it's easy to judge when you're making assumptions about what may or may not have happened. The reality is much more complex.

Also, to be clear, I'm not hesitating because I'm afraid of losing the friendship, which is pretty robust and able to withstand differences in approach and opinion. However, I don't want to make things even more difficult for a friend who has already been through a great deal. I'm also not naive enough to think that I would be able to fix her daughter's problems where everyone else has failed.

I do feel sorry for the daughter, primarily because I think she is her own worst enemy. There is something very sad about watching someone destroy the one relationship that was helping to sustain them. I really hope that she can find a way of getting help and sorting herself out, and that bridges can perhaps be rebuilt at some point in the future. I am happy to help with this in so far as I can, but my first priority is the wellbeing of my friend and her other dc. I don't believe that this makes me "complicit" in anything, and perhaps if you were aware of all the facts, you would understand better where I'm coming from.

I imagine that also feels quite cruel for the daughter.

Not now but when, when will she see me again, when will I feel like her daughter again?

This may not be the intention but I wonder if if feels like a punishment and she doesn’t know when the punishment ends.

I wanted to add to this, that in my opinion (not professional), EUPD behaviours (especially the manipulation) in a young adult is often a wounded inner child/teen screaming to be heard. What is it that her mum isn’t hearing? What happened that the mum isn’t acknowledging that, if she did, could help the daughter to heal/move forwards?

Is it something you could possibly hear from her OP, when you meet (as I’ve seen you’ve decided to). Could you maybe ask her, what is it you want to say to your mum? What happened back then that hurt you? Talk in feelings, not in thoughts.

I’m only saying this as your posts on mum trying to get her help and support suggest to me that there’s a stalemate. Something needs to move. That something is often hearing and acknowledging a deep wound that isn’t being heard/felt and the person needs safety to voice that.

I want to add, OP, that I don’t come from this opinion from a place of blame for the mother’s actions. It sounds like she’s doing her best and that’s all we can ever do. But something isn’t being heard. What is that? It might be hard for the mum to hear, (and not necessarily something she has done could be anything traumatic), but could be a springboard for healing.

The daughter in her early 20s, doesn’t have close contact with her mother or father. Who do you think she can rely on? It seems very unfair for the daughter, who appears to be in the most vulnerable position.

OP, you sound like a nice woman, but tread with great care if you wish to preserve your friendship.

You are in huge danger of overstepping and possibly appearing as if you know better.

This is your friend's life, family and child.
Tell her everything.
Ask her for her advice, guidance and decision.
Follow whatever she advises to the letter.

You are at huge risk of offending her and ruining the friendship if you don't take great care.

Be guided by her completely.
Good luck.