To feel sorry for my friend's daughter?

[Feelingsorryforher]

My friend has been through an incredibly difficult decade. I won't give details because it isn't my place to share her story, but it has been very tough. I have done my best to support in different ways throughout, both emotionally and practically. My friend herself has been amazing...strong, positive and resilient in the face of some tremendous challenges. I really admire her.

Recently, she has made a decision to cut her young adult daughter out of her life. The daughter is toxic in many ways, and her behaviour has been truly dreadful, causing my friend a huge amount of difficulty and stress. Again, I'm not going to provide details because it isn't my story to tell, but suffice to say that I totally understand my friend's decision and I respect that she has to do what she feels she needs to do to preserve her own sanity and protect her younger dc, having previously turned her life upside down in order to try and support the older daughter. I have not questioned my friend's decision or expressed any doubts about it to her.

But actually, I have been struggling with her decision, because I find myself feeling very sorry for the daughter who is now desperately trying to mend the relationship. The pity that I feel is despite the fact that I still feel incredibly angry with the daughter for the way that she has treated her mum. I just can't imagine ever cutting off my dc in a million years. Then again, my dc wouldn't ever behave in the way that my friend's daughter has behaved, so it's a very different relationship.

My friend will not engage with the daughter's attempts to fix things, and I totally understand why. The daughter has a history of being manipulative, and this may just be more of the same. But at the same time, the daughter herself is extremely vulnerable and very messed up, and I can't help not feel sorry for the fact that she has effectively cut off the only solid source of support that she had.

The daughter has now contacted me directly to ask her to intervene with her mum. I will tell her that I definitely can't do this, but I'm wondering if I should offer to at least meet with her myself as she is in a very bad place and I'm worried about her - she has a history of self harm. Should I ask my friend if she is OK with me offering to meet with her daughter, or would it be better off just telling the daughter that I can't get involved? I don't think I would want to have contact with the daughter without sharing this with my friend, as that would feel disloyal.

I have known this young woman since she was a baby, and I had a lot of contact with her when she was growing up. I am under no illusions about how toxic she can be, but I also recognise that she has been through some very tough times herself. WWYD in this situation?

YABU - tell the daughter that you can't get involved and ask her not to contact you again
YANBU - ask your friend if she would mind you offering to meet with the daughter to check on her wellbeing

So the elderly child intentionally put her younger sibling in harms way to get back at her mum for whatever reason (there is no valid reason to ever do this) so mum has been forced to go nc to protect her younger dc. Now upon finding out that she's going to have to live with the consequences of her abhorrent behaviour she's trying to manipulate you into being her flying monkey
If i were you I'd tell the daughter to do 1 and never darken my door again, the sort of nasty pos who would intentionally put a sibling at risk just to get back at a parent is a dangerous psychopath imho

If you read my post properly you would see that I have said df was the better parent, but we ARE indeed responsible for the kind of men we allow to father our children, and the consequences to them when they fail their children and harm them. It’s not the woman’s ‘fault’ that lies with the abuser/father. We can’t just wash our hands of the harm that comes to them either, given our role as their mother and the person that gave them life.

Df didn’t harm her dd, that doesn’t mean her dd is unharmed though.

Agreed. If she is a drug addiction, steer clear.

I wouldn’t meet the girl, she sounds incredibly manipulative, let the mother handle it, anyway the mother hasn’t completely cut contact by the sounds of it as they have spoke on a few occasions since she said she would, I’m sure the mother would still help her if something happened to her / she was in danger, sounds like the mother wants to keep her at arms length for the moment and I think this might also teach the girl that she cannot act the way she does and still have people stand by her…..which is something she needs to learn by the sounds of it

Stay out of it. Your friend knows the ins and outs of this far better than you do, and it may well be that the daughter now sees you as a route to her mother's attention. It's possible to love someone but to also know that they are manipulative and that the dynamic between you is harmful. Especially given there are other siblings involved, just trust your friend's decision and respect her boundary.

If this is the case, why do you think the daughter has turned out the way she has?

Because the daughter is very manipulative and she has probably given her multiple chances in the past.

For example (I don’t know if this is drug related, just an example) drug addicts are very good at showing remorse and making efforts to reign on back in only to repeat the same things over and over and over.

This is difficult without knowing more about why they fell out but any family member has to have truly come to the end of the line to go no contact, and sometimes its about self survival of the well being of others (i.e. younger DC).

Ultimately when you have tried everything you can to get someone on the right path (particularly where drugs and alcohol are involved), you need to stop enabling them and leave them to sink or swim because no-one can make them change without them wanting to as they need to do it for themselves.

This seems to be the point your friend has reached. If the daughter wants to prove that she is being genuine, then she needs to sort her self out, get counselling (you make it clear she is at risk) and once she can demonstrate to her family she is dealing with the issues, then her mum maybe willing to listen.

I have been in a similar position, I loved them, I wanted the best for them but when you extend the situation by trying to prop them up and not getting them to take responsibility, you aren't helping you are just delaying the inevitable.

I wouldn't met the daughter. I would tell her by phone or message that if she can prove to you that she is getting help, and sticks at it, you may talk to her mum on her behalf, but that is someway down the line, when she has proved she is getting help. I would then and only then, tell your friend what you have done and why...no secrets.

If you genuinely think the daughter is at risk, tell social services, but again, as she is an adult she has to want to address things herself so their powers maybe limited.

Surely that’s absolutely key? She’s got to her early 20s with very disturbed behaviour and no substantial professional input?

Whoever you talk to, I would raise this as important in making progress. The longer she goes on just labelled as a huge problem, but without actual assessment and help, the less chance she has of creating a better life.

It does raise the question of how much effort was made to get her help before she became an adult?

I agree with much of the advice you've already had re respecting your friend's wishes and any limitations she suggests.

At this point you can't be a good friend to your friend and support the daughter. If your friend is comfortable with you meeting her daughter, you do so, but you set out boundaries in advance and you stick to them. It should be a one-off meeting - and you make that 100% clear at the outset. You use the meeting to guide the daughter to other, more appropriate sources of support, so that she never has to turn to you again, because - and you tell her this and mean it - you won't be there for her again.

If it's absolutely necessary, you provide one more dollop of support to get her to a first appointment, but only if you think she's genuinely incapable of getting there without your logistical and emotional support.

I did this kind of thing once for a good friend who was in crisis, because I judged she was at risk and knew she didn't have other people to turn to. I helped her get an emergency mental health bed, but I was very strict with her throughout the long hours that took and told her I was doing it so she'd get proper support, because I could not and would not be her last resort ever again (I also made sure the hospital understood the failures in the system that had led to her needing an emergency bed).

I was supportive but very tough. I've never regretted dropping everything to help her (she was apologetic and very grateful when she was better ) and there was never a repeat call for help. Possibly the most useful thing I did for my friend was hammer home that she must she learn how to access and navigate mental health support. If you're able to do that for your friend's daughter you may make a real difference. Making the attempt should give you the peace of knowing that whatever happens, you've done as much as you can for your friend's daughter. You can't support your friend and her daughter and if you try, you'll fail on both counts and possibly put your own mental wellbeing and peace of mind in jeopardy.

There is a limit to the support you can give anyone: don't let your friend's daughter manipulate you into thinking you're responsible for her wellbeing. Decide how much of your time and emotional energy you can spare and don't be guilt-tripped into going beyond that.

A very personal story. My DD1(very nearly 18) made a false allegation of common assault against me at the start of 2024. I was arrested, detained in custody for 21 hours, interviewed under caution with a duty solicitor present and then released on bail but not allowed to reside in the family home. Until the police interviewed DD1 and she admitted making up the allegation to get back at me for happening upon her accessing some highly inappropriate material on the (dark) web. Not that she told the police the latter bit. I have never forgiven DD1. Nor will I ever. My arrest and subsequent events have comprehensively wrecked my life and my physical and mental health. DD1 turns 18 in December. She will no longer have a home here. I’m honestly not sure if I want to continue having any relationship with her. OP, I understand your friend.

If friends dc is an addict then she has made the right decision
It will push her to her natural rock bottom

Nobody is born that way. There’s a reason a woman in her early 20s, became like that. I definitely feel sorry for the daughter.

I think you are being led into becoming what people call the “pack of flying monkeys” the people who get emotionally manipulated by the narcissist to show up and convince the person who cut them off that they are wrong after they go no contact.

You are right not to try to convince your friend to make contact with the daughter.

I also have a toxic family member and she has a habit of contacting mutual friends relatives, saying we won't talk to her and she desperately needs us to get in touch. Some of them have been quite rude, telling us we should be more loyal to a family member. They have no real idea of what she has put us through and how painful the decision to go NC actually was.

If someone said to me (a friend or a relative) that they were going to meet with her and support her, that would be a massive weight off my mind. Over the years, I have been the only person who stood by her, and it was the fact I was the only one left that kept me there so long, even though she treated me worse than anyone else and used me as an emotional punchbag. I think about her and worry about her often. I know that it's not all her fault and a lot of her behaviour stems from severe mental health issues, and I'm full of guilt that I've had to step back.

My own mental health can't take it any more but that doesn't mean I don't want her to be supported and loved.

I am so very sorry that you have had to go through that! It had to be a horrible experience and I'd have nightmares for life, so I sympathize. Do you two talk? Do you cook and clean for her? Any interaction?
As hurt as you are, would you be open to get counselling for you and your DD1, in the hopes of forgiving her and to strengthen your mental health, since it has taken such a beating? No, you will not ever forget, but forgiveness is possible.

UnMumsnet {{HUGS}} to you!

.By contacting you, the daughter is continuing to be manipulative.

If she has no support system of her own, that speaks volumes.

Continue to support your friend. Do not contact the daughter.

This might be the moment she needs to change. While she is enabled, she will remain stuck as an awful person.

@AnnoyedAsAllHeck

Yes, we speak, yes, I parent her, yes she lives here in the school holidays (she’s in a residential college placement for 35 weeks a year, due to disabilities and complexities). No, I don’t want any (more) counselling or therapy. I am middle aged now and I have been absolutely put through the mill. I will never recover. I honestly will feel like I have done my duty when DD1 gets to adulthood. I crave peace, solitude, serenity and calmness and a life that is free from drama. I wish my DD no ill will but I cannot leave myself open to further false allegations. Spending 21 hours in a police cell broke my spirit and my mental health and I was previously mentally robust with no history of depression or intake of antidepressants.

Your dd has disabilities and complexities, is it possible she didn’t fully understand the consequences of her actions? It doesn’t sound like she has an easy life.

@Nestingbirds

I don’t wish to derail this thread and make it all about me. I merely posted my story to illustrate how some parents can be absolutely pushed to the brink. Yes, my DD1 is disabled and has multiple complexities but she is intellectually able. She basically threw me under a bus to save her own skin with the police. She knew exactly what she was doing. That’s the bit that’s very hard to bare. Plus, she has never shown any remorse.

That would break anyone @ThePieceHall am so sorry, she's never shown remorse?
I don't know how you've managed to stay civil to her.

I mean I’ve had some extremely serious shit go down in my family and have had to go NC with my own dad but still can’t imagine what would poses me to actually go No contact with my child. Feel free to enlighten me

@NellieElephantine

No, not an ounce of remorse. I think of myself as a walking bank card in a transactional relationship with my DD1 now. Believe it or not, we get on extremely well at arm’s length. I provide everything for her and I speak to her several times a day. I am always at the end of the phone, day or night, whenever she is in crisis or has a crisis. I’ll be honest, I just don’t feel the same way about her anymore. Something in me broke during my 21 hours in a police cell. I was absolutely terrified as I am claustrophobic. As I say, my DD1 is 18 in December and then, by hook or by crook, she will not be living in the family home.

Just be careful not to end up in the middle or the receiving end of this.

God, this is so hard.

Generally I think that a parent is responsible (in either sense of the word) for the child's failings - even if only because no-one else is - and that it's a moral responsibility to continue to parent, and not to reject a child.

In this case, I notice that you say she's been an exemplary parent but the father has not. Perhaps her responsibility is in failing to protect her child from the father, or even further back, in choosing a bad father for her child. Perhaps the child has experienced the same trauma as the mother. Either way - the child cannot be to blame.

The only thing that can complicate this is the parent's moral responsibility to their other children, and it sounds like that's in play here. Even so, there are ways to remove the damaging/damaged child from the environment without withdrawing your parenting or love. This also applies when a child has an intractable personality disorder or similar.

This makes me think that your friend is primarily acting to protect herself. I think this is morally a very grey area. The adult made a choice to have a child, the child made no choice to be alive, the adult must live with the consequences of their actions. But you could argue that this may destroy the adult, which would then destroy the other children. It's really difficult.

Either way, I don't think you can describe your friend an exemplary parent as casually as you do here. Your discomfort and anxiety is telling you as much. .

I think you shouldn't be complicit in allowing your friend to file this 'issue resolved'/I did what I had to do. Hard I know. It all needs further serious self-examination, hopefully supported by a psychotherapist.

I agree with those who say you are not the person to resolve this for the child. Someone upthread suggested a good way of pitching this to the daughter, emphasising the things that she can have agency over ie her self-development and growth.

I'd add that the really important thing to emphasise, over and over again, is that things ALWAYS change. Change is the only constant - nothing is forever. You have so often seen people change their minds even when it seemed impossible, etc and etc. The possibility of repair is never gone. The child must have hope.

I'm so sad for that child, regardless of whether she is (or has been forced to be/learnt to be) manipulative. Borderline personality disorder can sometimes present like this but it's generally considered to be triggered by trauma. Children make terrible, terrible decisions which sometimes cannot be walked back. It's horrific - but they are nevertheless children and deserve compassion and a second chance.

Critically, they need support to understand themselves so that they can make use of that second chance. One of the things that has shocked me about your friend is that she's allowed her offer of therapy to be batted away - this child clearly desperately needs it. The fact that your friend has cut ties without any intervention or support for the child makes me doubt her exemplariness even more.