Day of Dad’s funeral; Council demand Mum sell her house day after

[Supersimkin7]

Buried Dad Tuesday.

Mum, 88, Parkinson’s, lost her DH of 60
years. She’s shaking with terror today.

I had hoped Social Services would give Mum 24 hours after her husband’s funeral before calling and demanding she sell her house and be moved to a care home asap, house money to be controlled by council, but it was not to be.

SS want permission from her DC (me and DB) to move her asap - we’ve got a month left of private carers. Mum & Dad have spent £650k of their and our money on care. DM is horribly, painfully disabled and needs 24hr care. There’s £0 left.

I told the social worker before funeral that we wanted DM at home for a while before any more major life changes, in case the shock kills her.

SS know Dad died. They know his will is wrongly written and we can’t do equity release as a result.

SS know we can’t pay for more private care, and that they’ll have to fork out for a couple of months respite care with round the clock carers if she at home.

But they rang DB the morning after the funeral to say they wouldn’t provide any care beyond a toilet break once every eight hours.

DM ran a charity for our part of London for 40 years. She worked tirelessly for locals and newcomers alike for a tiny salary. As net contributors to society go, she’s right up
there.

We all know councils lick their lips at the prospect of getting the cash from a London house.

But AIBU - are these social workers being cruel, greedy and dangerous?

Sadly it is in the context of the situation, but morally you are correct, its very, very poor.

Have you considered asking for a DST too see if she qualifies for a full assessment for Continuing Health Care? If you can prove her needs are primarily health related the ICB will fund her care.

So out of six pages of questions and advice, this is all you took from them?

That’s not true - being a few pence over the threshold simply means that they pay for the service until they drop below it.

The savings threshold for cares costs is a little over £23,000 (cant remember the exact amount) once you drop below that you pay for a percentage that decreases the lower your savings become.

I don't understand any of this. My mother in law had Parkinson's Disease and nobody insisted she sell her house. She died in it, she had care at home and jolly good it was too. What does it have to do with the council? That is awful, inhumane, wanting to turn an old lady out of her home.

I think it's incredibly insensitive to not wait a week after your Dad's funeral.

She is clearly hurt and trying to keep everything together. Crisis’ mean you don’t think logically!

The hospital scheduled a meeting to discuss my Mums hospital discharge involving 16 nhs staff (because I threatened them with the lawyers) for the day after they knew my husband was undertaking major surgery in London (300 miles away from my Mum) so I needed to attend by telephone whilst juggling my 7 month old baby and my Mum had no support in the room. That was to try and force her into a nursing home after they had actually caused clinical negligence!

The system doesn’t take into account people undergoing traumatic evens. That meeting didn’t need to be the day after, just like they didn’t need to contact her mum the day after her husbands funeral.

Im wondering whether there is no power of attorney and OPs mum is deemed to be lacking capacity. In that case social services / local adult social care will step in and take over.

So yes, if she has run out of money and needs to be housed by them, then they can make the decision to sell the property, if they deem it is in her best interests to be in a home which can provide 24 hr care.

Did nobody else have POA for your mum, for finance or health?

What is the problem with the will - does the house belong to your mum 100%

You can ask them to defer payment, or you can arrange carers yourselves, but you will need to open a dialogue. It sounds as if you have a month of care paid for - its unlikley that she will have respite care, but its worth asking - that is usually only offered when the client is likely to return home, but with no money to pay for care that doesnt seem likley.

Im sorry that its come to this so quickly

From how I’ve read it, I may be wrong but it sounds like the OP’s mother needs full time care, there is no money left in the family pot due to care costs already paid.
It sounds as though the house is the only asset left and SS are asking it be sold to pay for ongoing care needs which, if the OPs mother needs 24 hour care is easier to manage in a care home.
At least that’s the only thing that makes sense, I work within the sector and meet plenty of elderly people still living at home and funding their care costs but these are people who are able to be left alone for a portion of time and have either downsized to release equity or still have money independently from their properties to meet the cost.

The local authority will pay for homeware up to 4 visits per day, over that and it becomes un-economical and they will place the person in a home - if they solely own a home without a disregard on it, that home is used towards the funding of residential care.

Home care does not include the house in the calculations, so if you have home care until you die, the house is not touched.

The care act sections on paying for care are very simple, yet it seems SS ignore and most of Joe Public cannot be bothered to read, in short-

On entering care there is a 12 week disregard where SS cover the bill

The value of the property is taken into account except where-
A spouse lives in the home
A relative over 60 lives in the home
A relative under 18 lives in the home
A disabled relative lives in the home.
These are mandatory

The LA must give due consideration to other cases, for example if a relative has given up their own home and moved in to care for an extended period
This would be discretional

If the property is counted the LA must offer a "Deferred Payment Agreement" whereby the care fees are repaid after the death of the person in care.

In addition, if the property is owned by multiple parties (ie parent and child) or part is in a will trust held for a child etc, only the amount owned by the person needing care may be counted - in this case a stalemate often occurs because the value of say 50% of a house is quite often nil, that's when it can get messy.

Councils are very loath to take anything to court, the care act very nearly got punctured by a notable case, a woman claimed a right to the family home as it was of sentimental value, and won, the council in question got the judgement reversed on appeal, but it showed the very real risk of precedents being set in a relatively new bit of legislation - quite often LAs, in complex cases will make a lot of threatening noises, if this provides no joy they will more often than not write off the cost rather than taking risks of creating case law.

Who was paying for the care. And did she have round the clock care.

OP can you take your mum to the GP to see if they can help her right now? Is she sleeping ok? I wonder if she needs some extra meds to get through the next week or so.

How about you? Are you eating and sleeping ok?

What pressure you must be feeling. Hope you have some support around you too.

The admin feels cruel and heartless but you will get it sorted. You sound like a great daughter. Take care xx

PS. AIBU may not be the best place to post when things are so raw. I wonder if you could get this moved to the elderly parents board?

I did wonder about this but couldnt remember what it was called?

Well quite. Everyone in a London borough lives in a London house. The council doesn't receive any of it, merely offsets costs they incur arranging and paying for the care and usually not on a full cost recovery basis by any means.

It's clear you're grieving and this must be an incredibly difficult time, but your language is inflammatory and your characterisation of the way things work either misinformed or intentionally provocative.

Everyone I know in adult social care is working tremendously hard under great pressure to keep people safe and make very limited resources go as far as possible.

Sadly I have come across cases of social workers haranguing relatives in this way and mis-representing or totally ignoring the very simple provisions in the care act.

I have seen it several times, those individuals are breaking the terms of the care act and putting pressure on families to do things they often don't need to be doing, at least right away.

Ok, then pay for it.

So sorry to hear this. The council wanted a family home back from my Gran within 24 hrs of us loosing her.

And there are occasions when elderly people are sectioned - say with dementia

I think I'm probably going down a rabbit hole that isn't helpful to the op but my elderly parent was sectioned with dementia, and s117 kicked in; i just wanted to clarify that sometimes social services are responsible for funding care when they have a statutory duty too, irregardless of a persons financial situation 😊

my terminally ill parent who was given 6 months to live qualified for continuing care funding. 11 months later when parent was still alive and stable and "not deteriorating quick enough" the funding was withdrawn even though they still needed the care, being tube fed and unable to do anything for themselves. perhaps ops mother isn't considered to be close enough to end of life to qualify for the continuing care as in my parents case.

A big tip I would give is don't talk to these people over the phone - Ask them to put what they have to communicate in writing (letter, not email).

Then mull over the communication, get advice etc. before replying or asking for clarification in writing.

It slows things a bit which gives you breathing space, also officials are a bit more circumspect over what they write as opposed to say over the phone, plus its all recorded on paper.

Look into NHS continuing healthcare, maybe a possibility depending on level of care required.

We (husband and I), were in charge of it. I went over every day except one, husband came in after work. She had carers who came in throughout the day, including early morning and bed time. I did the cooking, shopping laundry etc but also personal care as did my husband. Towards the end we took it in turns to stay overnight. She received attendance allowance. It was about three years start to finish. I always intended to go back to work afterwards but never did, however I regret nothing, she was lovely to look after and she was able to stay in her own home which she really wanted.

I had an aunt who developed dementia in her late eighties, she needed 24 hour care, would go out in her nightie and knock on neighbours' doors, wasn't safe so there was no alternative to her going into a nursing home when she was ninety. Her daughter (my cousin), let her mother's house to pay for the care home fees and that would have gone on indefinitely, however it wasn't that long before she died. Nobody was after her house though. My cousin is now ninety, had to go into a care home early this year for the same reasons.

I'm 75 and have decided I am going to barricade myself in if necessary :-)! I joke but we never know what is around the corner.

I think you're understandably in shock, and it is impacting the way that you're relaying information and absorbing information.

From what I understand from your posts, SS are requesting the house be sold to fund a full time care home placement for your mum who has demonstrable round the clock care needs, but due to an issue with your dad's will, it means that the house can't be sold instantly, so thats one stressor.

I imagine that you're worried that you're going to have to seek imminent legal advice around this to make sure that it is handled properly. I would still encourage you to, once you've had chance to clear your head. It might be best if you and your brother do this together. Two heads are better than one.

Then you're worried your mum will have to move out of her long term home quite quickly after a shock and you're worried she will die. I understand this worry, but you need to understand that when you get to being elderly, with substantial health conditions, when your significant other dies you appear to decline faster. This might be one of the reasons social services are keen to get your mum into a care home as fast as they can because it is now imperative that she has safeguarding in place, to make sure that her needs are met, and to provide stability and routine that she will no longer have at home. It is a big change, so it should be dealt with empathetically. I can understand why you're not enthusiastic about it though.

You've already received some great advice about the continual care funding that you can ask about.

I am sorry for your loss, I wish we could make this transitional stage smoother for you.

You’re all grieving and in shock, and the timing in awful.
Social services are not able to fund 24hr care in the home. Once a package of care costs more than residential care, then it exepected that the person will go into residential. The social workers do not have a choice about this.
Social care / the council / the social workers do not get the money, it is used to fund the cost of a care home. Whether an 100grand house in Bolton or a one million pound house in Chelsea, once sold, the funds go to the cost of care, nothing more.
Regarding continuing care, in my borough, social workers would do a CHC checklist as part of the Care Act Assessment, so it’s likely your mum has already been considered for CHC and is not eligible. The threshold is extremely high.
its truly horrible, but if your mum needs 24hr care then that will need to be in a care home unless you can fund it privately.