Which country will you move to if Reform win next election?

[Krenonges]

Faced with the prospect of NHS being sold off, ICE-style immigration raids and deportations, emboldened bigots, changes to the school curriculum, public services dessimated, leaving EHCR, I honestly think I'll have no choice but to leave. I don't want to but I couldn't bring DC up in fascist state.

Luckily my DH, DC and I are all dual nationals of an EU country so we have an escape route if needed and this country goes to the dogs.

Where would you go?

There are lots of parties in the Netherlands apart from "the left" and Gert Wilders. And besides it was Gert Wilders who collapsed the last right wing coalition for his own petty political reasons. This making dealing with any of the issues you listed.a lot harder. Even the Dutch mainstream parties have been banging on about immigration . To the extent of blocking a refugees children's day trip to Efteling at the very last minute. And housing is a huge political discussion point (of course discussing is not the same as fixing)The Netherlands has never been that "left wing". Its politics has always been an odd mix of the very liberal (in terms of sex work, drugs) and quite insular/ruthlessly pragmatic. If the reference to "issues far away" was about Israel/Gaza then by far the most vocal politician on these issues is Wilders. (He spent time in Israel as a young man and reports that this was when his attitudes towards Islam hardened.) He continues to be very pro-Israel and connects Israel's struggles with The Netherlands (which is absolutely fine btw but if a politician talking about Gaza is "talking about issues far away" then a politician talking about Israel is doing the same). Besides which, if you want to talk about immigration properly then you do also need to talk about issues far away since the two issues interconnect.

Not saying that Wilders won't necessarily get elected. Just that your characterisation of Dutch politics is off.

Exactly. Geert Wilders is no different to Nigel Farage. Do you really want to be an immigrant in the Netherlands? How well do you speak Dutch?

Interesting that some people think those who have concerns around mass immigration, integration & the myriad socio-economic issues arising from such globalised pressures are soft-brained, stupid and easily led by 'bad people' and 'bad newspapers'.

Yet, it never occurs to them to question if they are also equally soft-brained, stupid and easily led by bad people, bad newspapers and misinformation. Somehow they are immune to hysterics and would never be led astray because they are 'good' people and all the information they consume is 'good' and 'true'.

No room for doubt in the self-righteous fanatic's mind as long as the fanatic believes they are on the 'good' side.

These 'bad' and 'evil' men randomly pop up out of nowhere. For no reason at all. The stupid plebs were living in bliss and then the bad men popped up and these stupid people started listening to them. Now I have to queue at the airport and it's not fair because I'm a 'good' person!

It's not like the 'good' people have played a big part for decades in causing the conditions that prove the bad men are right.
Oh foolish, stupid plebs! Don't you know these bad men will lie to you and disappoint you? Why aren't you satisfied with being lied to and disappointed by those of us who are godly and good instead?

The godly and good will flee to their utopia abroad and not be defiled by the dirty plebs around them. Funny how it's never Nigeria or India that they plan on escaping to. They want to be near other white people. Diversity for thee but not for me!

Anyway some sense from Paul Embery as always. If only Labour had actual decent people like him at the helm. I would vote for them in a heartbeat if that was the case.

www.paulembery.com/p/thoughts-on-the-labour-deputy-leadership

This is an interesting thread. So many people wanting to leave the UK because of what's happening now , or the fear of a Reform government.
Yet, where do people want to "escape" to? Imaginary perfect societies.
Yet these are places, even in Europe, with massive social and economic problems. Problems with immigration. Places with far right parties. Places with entrenched sexism and misogyny, increasing antisemitism and homophobia. Even other places where homosexuality is not only illegal, but punishable in the most severe terms.
There is no utopia.

@bushmillsbabe where are you from that you cannot live and work in Ireland?

How would you fight to change things?
Beyond voting, there is not a lot people can do.

its a funny country
About 15 years ago when I didn't speak Dutch that well I was trying to talk to someone in a shop in English and they didn't understand me so another Dutch person stepped in which was nice, but then sort of apologised to me by adding "typical Morrocans they dont even speak English". (The first person was Moroccan-Dutch). Which was weird because we were in the Netherlands so if anything the expectation should have been that we speak Dutch... But no, second generation Moroccans are failing to integrate not speaking English perfectly as well as Dutch.
But now there is some increased resentment of the 30%ers (tax status for immigrants) and students wanting classes in English not Dutch. So there might be more of a backlash.

Yes anyone naming the Netherlands as a haven of liberalism and tolerance Have obviously not visited for a while. They are facing the same issues and the same shift to the right as the uk.

Join a political party. Stand for office. Join a pressure group. Be part of a campaign. Campaign for change.
The only thing for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing.

There is this, people do seem to be sticking to countries with immigration control and other healthcare models - whilst complaining the same could happen here - but not anything too different.

Good point

Just not running away will help.

If you leave the country to the crazies, how is that a good thing?

I’ll do my bit in my small corner and stand up and be counted.

@TheColourOutOfSpace

Can’t both things be true?

Undoubtedly, Labour’s connection with their traditional base has changed massively and they’ve alienated a lot of people in traditionally Labour voting areas (e.g. The Red Wall) - I remember Alan Johnson tackling the Momentum leader about this on the night of Johnson won the election. People feel patronised by, detached from and silenced by the party, and many feel that their votes have been taken for granted for a long time. It’s clear to me how these conditions have led to Brexit, Johnson, Reform, etc (as much as I’m horrified by it). I’m a lefty (working class, red wall background) and I recognise the piety/sanctimonious approach in some parts, which you refer to.

However, that doesn’t cancel out how both the right-wing media and right-wing politicians weaponise and exploit issues and concerns surrounding things like immigration. Consider Jenrick, for example: after 14 years in government when his party decimated public services, he’s now posting videos produced to give him massive exposure and also to inflame, e.g. tackling people who don’t buy a tube ticket, when he himself should have been sacked for corruption when in office. The influence of billionaires like Musk and misinformation/rage-bait on X is a very real threat: look at his comments video-linked in at the march last weekend from the luxury and safety of his mansion. They seem hellbent on division.

I read that German border control was turning away anyone who wasn’t pregnant or an unaccompanied minor.
FAR more extreme than the UK

Most Reform support has come from previous Tory voters.

It’s reminiscent of the Second World War when lots of left-wing intellectuals scarpered to the USA.

All that chic anti-fascist talk was just that…talk.

so you’ll move to a country that was literally run by Nazis

Jesus Christ that’s weak.

Not sure that’s still the case. Labour are losing a huge amount to Reform. Wales shows this in polling and the red wall

It’s certainly the case as the growth in Reform is primarily from the utter collapse of the Tories.

If that was the case Labour wouldn’t be losing Wales ot be so concerned about the red wall.

Someone put this graphic on another thread. It shows where Labour votes are going, it’s a pretty high crossover in colour red to turquoise

It is the case that most of the growth in Reform
has been from the collapse in the Tory vote.

@Sherbs12 totally - and I fail to see why Starmer is pushing people to vote reform - all I can say is that people have very short memories, Reform is full of the same people who brought you this downgrading of the UK - I’m a centreist but many on the further left ( I won’t say far left) are in cuckoo land if they think there are easy options just to make things ok for ‘them’ in an instant - the country simply doesn’t have the cash- years and years of the Tory’s decimating things and not investing has made that so - we’ve totally trashed investment due to Brexit in part - I think people forgot how much investment was underwritten by the EU and yes we paid in a lot, but we got an awful lot out too , both in hard cash for projects and in the fact we were a prime location for international business. My main bugbear on all that was that it concentrated on citys and a lot of mid size towns got very little-
I think too many people expect simplistic solutions, when there really aren’t any to be had - to be honest if Farage gets in I think it will at least wake people up to the fact he isn’t a saviour, he’s a self serving opportunistic conman playing on people’s fears , they won’t be better off, they won’t suddenly have solutions to all these issues and it will burst the bubble - we are going to move back abroad anyway as have a business with EU interests and can use our self employed status using nomad visas - my son at 27 is hoping the new ruling will come in re under 30s as he will be doing similar - nowhere is perfect and everywhere has issues but PR everywhere else tends to make sure that you don’t end up with dictators actually running the show- the press and media give Farage a free rein to spout his stuff because he’s good for clicks and sales , and sadly that’s how the media works these days. The BBC have been politicised by the Tory’s, Sky clearly have Murdoch or someone pulling the strings again - it’s all kind of inevitable and sad too - follow the money as they say and the money is from those on the right wing of politics.

Very lucky that I can go live in Australia should I wish. 😎

As is Germany, France, Italy, Hungary etc…..

Can you see the image? There’s a large shift from Labour. It looks like a pretty broad band for that colour shift.