Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

[QOrion]

I posted this in response to a short thread on Feminism and Women’s Rights but I want more people to see it. I want to have my say, even if I’m late to the conversation, and even if most people don’t care. I don’t expect many replies but maybe I’ll make some people think about what I’m saying.

I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light. He’s not the first public figure to be shot and killed, even this year. If those deaths were even mentioned on Mumsnet, they certainly weren’t given much attention.

I’d never heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot and his death had little impact on me. I have serious issues in my own life, people are shot and killed in America every day and there is a lot of suffering going on around the world, a lot of atrocities committed. It didn’t seem to be an incident that affected me in any significant way, even when I discovered his position on transgender ideology. I share essentially the same position on transgender ideology with many people I don’t want to be associated with.

Then I read his comments about black people. I can’t wax lyrical about how Charlie Kirk was ‘decent’ and ‘respectful’. How, ‘Isn’t it nice he gave his political opponents a platform’. And I can’t feel any kind of kinship with people who, knowing what he’s said about black people, still feel compelled to highlight his good qualities.

Let me be clear: I don’t believe he should have been killed. I don’t even support the death penalty in any circumstance, so I can hardly support Charlie Kirk being killed. But I am learning, not for the first time, that Mumsnetters in general, and users of this subforum (FWR) tend to ignore black people and our concerns, until we are useful. Whether that is taking cases to court when much is made of the claimant’s ethnic heritage (why?) or the perennial ‘transgenderism is womanface, it’s offensive like blackface’.

You have no idea and I think it is possible you will never understand just how much slights about my ethnic heritage cut deep. Slights to my womanhood are pretty trivial in comparison. I think this is something white women will never understand. So, you go on singing the virtues of Charlie Kirk. We’ll be here the next time you need to exploit us for your own purposes.

I think that's a sly dig.

You'll be on the wrong side of history one day.

Where did I saw the killing of George Floyd was acceptable? I clearly said that both killings were wrong

The point was that both were people who seem to have been martyred in death, and any conversations about their actions prior to being killed seem to be being silenced in the name of 'respecting the dead'. And that it's possible to both show respect to a person/their family and disagree with their views or actions. Although some comments (not yours) on this thread seems to show otherwise.

What would the possible context be that would make those remarks acceptable? Unless you are suggesting he didn't say those things?

I asked you to show me a pattern of white people being dismissed by racist POC. I would expect you do to this by listing individuals this had happened to, but because I asked for a pattern, I would expect you to be able to list significant enough numbers for it to be a pattern. Or if that would be too laborious, then the statistics showing the numbers of cases would suffice.
I strongly suspect we may get a Reform government, but that the reason for that will be the failure of successive governments to address class and wealth inequality, leading to a rightfully discontented WC, who have been thrown scapegoats to hide the real cause of their disadvantage. This worries me.
If you want me to also worry about anti white racism, you need to prove to me it exists. A start would be your evidence that white WC boys underachievement is caused by being white in an anti white society.

And completely ignored the violent attacks and threats there have been against Democrat politicians.

Oh hold on - I see this thread is a hit and run by OP.

Got it.

It’s not a hit and run. I had the time and motivation to engage with the thread yesterday when I posted it but no-one was interested for quite some time. I will be able to organise my thoughts and respond later on. Sorry, today has been busy with things I can’t put off and my iPad misbehaving is not helping the situation.

I just re- read your OP and noted the stuff about trans people.

YANBU at all in what you are saying about white people and their praise of CK who was a racist man.

It’s really disappointing to see your comments / prejudice about trans people.

Please don't scold the OP. Part of what she is objecting to is forced teaming and opinions coming as a package.

I also worry we will get Reform government, which will be helpful for no one. But in a vacuum of discontent, misinformation and extremism thrives.
Vast numbers are disconnected across all areas of society , WC people who feel they can't get support/housing/jobs, the 'squeezed middle' who feel they are working harder and harder for very little benefit to their families, 'higher earners' who feel penalised by an increasing tax burden.

I don't think the underacheivement of white working class boys is due to racism, otherwise it would also apply to white girls too. It's a much wider issue around curriculum suitability, reduced ambition, gender roles changing and adjusting to that and probably a whole range of other reasons.

But to say that no white person has ever been on receiving end of racism is untrue, however it's not well reported on or publicised for fear of being shot down with 'you can't experience racism, your white' type comments. It's like pretending something doesn't exist will make it go away.

My husbands family are Irish, and they experienced significant racism when moved to England 'no blacks, no Irish' signs were commonplace. And discrimination can occur within people of same skin colour but different ethnic origins - Ireland for example remains quite insular in rural areas, with people from outside Ireland excluded from jobs, certain areas etc, the attacks of eastern European immigrants in Northern Ireland.

People go on the attack when they either feel superior/untouchable, or when they feel inferior/threatened/scared as a defense mechanism. My daughter received racist abuse because families in her class were scared she would 'corrupt' them - as a 5 year old wearing shorts in summer she was called 'white trash' 'slutty' etc and children whose families believed girls should be fully covered wouldn't play with her, even when weather got cooler and she was more covered again.

Excellent post. Thanks for speaking the truth. It really does need to be heard.

Occam's razor would suggest there's a lot of plastic grass around.

Disappointed to read but not surprised by some of the responses on here.

Some of us are reading and listening op, and at times that is what we should be doing especially when it from a different experience to our own

It really not hard to understand that that incidents that are down to differences in ethnic background having a negative impact on victims is not the same as societal racism, some people just do not want to accept this

I'm sorry that happened to your daughter, but unless white boys in shorts were also called slutty white trash, and non white girls were 'allowed' to wear shorts without comment, I'd say she was the victim of sexism not racism. When assessing if we are the victim if an 'ism' our comparator has to be how are people who don't share that key characteristic with us are treated. So in that case it was one rule for girls of all races, another for boys of all races, so sexism.

Which is exactly what has always happened when there are political assassinations. All it does is create justification for someone else to think in their own mind that they can do the same. And it escalates. History tells us that. So all those seeking some justification for his death because of his views have to accept that there will be people now justifying killing someone on the opposing political spectrum because of their views. There's no 'i don't support killing someone because of their views, but he was a horrible person' you either stop after views or you are part of a really serious and escalating problem.

Personally I found Charlie Kirk's views despicable and divisive and I had zero respect for him. He could have used his undoubted gifts for charming and influencing people in positive ways but instead he promoted intolerance.
His death was a tragedy for his family, of course, and a blow for freedom of speech because no-one should die for having views. But it was not more of a tragedy than, say, the deaths of many Black people at the hands of American police. Arguably, though, at least Charlie Kirk's family will see some justice, while the Black families rarely do.

Also, there is no evidence whatsoever that his assassin killed him for his views. We don't know why he killed him, but I am so tired of the way it has been assumed that the 'woke left' were somehow responsible for his death.

Just googled that story. The attacker was a Syrian national. Well, apparently he attacked the good samaritan and his friend then jumped in and stabbed the guy in the face. The guy was previously a part time model but now has facial disfigurement.

Correction, a Syrian man was questioned but later released as there was no evidence it was him.

@No, he wasn’t Hitler, but he was a vile man. It is understandable that a black person may feel uneasy about people glorifying such a racist individual.

Agree. Equally tiresome is for people to keep framing his death as a 'blow for free speech'.
As you rightfully remind us, CK was murdered for reasons unknown. But whatever the reasons, they were unlawful and the state will punish the perpetrator.
Unless it emerges that his death was actually a state sanctioned assassination because the government has decided to silence its citizens in this way, his murder by an independent citizen is no more a threat to the right free speech than being killed for your wallet is a threat to your rights to have money.

Ah, that's was omitted from the article I read. It said it was reported that a Syrian man had attacked him. However, having read a more recent article the victim has expressed frustration that the suspect was released, stating that the man was already known to the police.

If I was a betting man I'd say the guy probably was guilty. What incentive would the good samaritan have to blame it on an innocent guy?

I don’t know about incentive, but the part time model did complain about Germany having too many immigrants, so that would be a good motive for lying.

You can't just redefine concepts that already have a widely accepted definition/meaning.

Oxford dictionary says:

the belief that some races are superior to others and the unfair, violent, or discriminatory treatment of people of different races

Nothing about power structures/privilege. Your definition sounds more like structural/institutional racism. It's amazing how many people lose their shit when TRAs attempt to redefine the definition of a woman yet happily do the same thing themselves with other concepts.

But to give an example...

White people are often framed as being associated with slavery. The archetypal image of a 'slaver' is a white overseer on a cotton plantation.

However, there are over 3x more slaves in the world today than were trafficked over the entire 300-400 years of the transatlantic slave trade. Last time I looked at the top ten countries involved in slavery not a single one was a western country and 9/10 were majority non-white (Russia was in 10th place).

So, it's truthful to say that white people have enslaved more POC than the reverse. But in aggregate white people aren't even close to being the worst offenders. To talk about this is considered racist and will have you shouted down.