Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

[QOrion]

I posted this in response to a short thread on Feminism and Women’s Rights but I want more people to see it. I want to have my say, even if I’m late to the conversation, and even if most people don’t care. I don’t expect many replies but maybe I’ll make some people think about what I’m saying.

I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light. He’s not the first public figure to be shot and killed, even this year. If those deaths were even mentioned on Mumsnet, they certainly weren’t given much attention.

I’d never heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot and his death had little impact on me. I have serious issues in my own life, people are shot and killed in America every day and there is a lot of suffering going on around the world, a lot of atrocities committed. It didn’t seem to be an incident that affected me in any significant way, even when I discovered his position on transgender ideology. I share essentially the same position on transgender ideology with many people I don’t want to be associated with.

Then I read his comments about black people. I can’t wax lyrical about how Charlie Kirk was ‘decent’ and ‘respectful’. How, ‘Isn’t it nice he gave his political opponents a platform’. And I can’t feel any kind of kinship with people who, knowing what he’s said about black people, still feel compelled to highlight his good qualities.

Let me be clear: I don’t believe he should have been killed. I don’t even support the death penalty in any circumstance, so I can hardly support Charlie Kirk being killed. But I am learning, not for the first time, that Mumsnetters in general, and users of this subforum (FWR) tend to ignore black people and our concerns, until we are useful. Whether that is taking cases to court when much is made of the claimant’s ethnic heritage (why?) or the perennial ‘transgenderism is womanface, it’s offensive like blackface’.

You have no idea and I think it is possible you will never understand just how much slights about my ethnic heritage cut deep. Slights to my womanhood are pretty trivial in comparison. I think this is something white women will never understand. So, you go on singing the virtues of Charlie Kirk. We’ll be here the next time you need to exploit us for your own purposes.

I didn't redefine racism. I explained it to a person who thought it simply meant hating a person of a different race. As you see from the definition you posted, there is an 'and' which is treating others unfairly and discriminating.
I merely pointed out that in order to fulfil this part of the definition, power is needed. A person can hate another as much as they like, but in the absence of power they will be unable to treat them unfairly or discriminate against them.
This isn't a new understanding that I've made up. It's the way 'isms' have been widely understood for decades.
And I haven't 'lost my shit' about anything, so I doubt you're amazed by me.

It is clear cut racist, towards black people. Yes. Obviously. It doesn't matter whether white people are good at basketball or not. It is a stay in your lane comment to black people: you keep what you're good at- basketball. If that's the example of him not being racist, it is not a good one.

I disagree.

Calling somebody a "white bitch" is racism full stop. You don't need power to commit a racist act. Many of the most grievous acts (mass shootings etc) are committed as a reaction to feeling powerless. This is also how racial resentment is fuelled.

Look at Germany prior to the rise of the Nazis. Look at all the people flocking to support Reform due to feeling that nobody else is listening to their concerns. Look at all the struggling white men complaining that the foreigners took the jobs. A lack of power is a greater predictor of bigotry IMO. To need a scapegoat you must first have an axe to grind.

Yet my X feed is full of black commentators who supported him, so the OP speaks for herself only.

That's quite some reach there; it was nothing of the sort.
It was a conversation about DEI and CK was merely highlighting that if the NBA suddenly had to hire more white people, the standard of play would likely go down because black people ARE better at basketball. How is that being in any way negative /racist toward black people?
He certainly wasn't saying 'stay in your lane'. Although I could think of worse 'lanes' to have to stay in - NBA is VERY well paid!

The OP said she'd never heard of him until a couple of days ago and she "read" what he had said about black people. Although I believe he has published books he is most well known for public speaking and debating so if her information had come from something she read it seems likely these are things written about him rather than by him.

I was aware of him but have not studied him in great detail, however, it's pretty clear that he is being badly misrepresented by things he said being taken out of context. What I do know is that there are quite a number of black conservative content creators who knew him personally and have paid very touching tributes to him. He recruited Candace Owens to work with him at Turning Point when she was relatively unknown. Her tribute to him as well as all of his videos are available on YouTube.
Other black content creators who have paid tribute include Officer Tatum, The Hodge Twins, Gothix, Amala Ekpunobi and Amir Odom (who happens to be both black and a married gay man) who posted a video debunking the most common misconceptions, I'll link below. Am I supposed to think these black people don't know a racist when they meet one?

I am not politically aligned with Charlie Kirk but I do not like seeing someone's murder justified by lies.

@SpaceRaccoon
You have 7.8 billion black people commenting on your posts??????

If not, the chances are that there are far more black people who share OP’s views on CK than yours.

No, you are being disingenuous. Affirmative action in recruitment means that the standards may be lowered to meet diversity quotas for minorities, such as Black individuals, transgender people, women, etc. This can result in hiring someone who may not have been fully qualified for the job. I used to work on planes, and I sometimes felt this way when I saw women in those roles. It’s not because I dislike women; I believe we are all made in the image of God, but because of similar reasoning.

@juldan see FOJNs post above.

Also:
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/stephen-king-charlie-kirk-comment/6391657/

Stephen King had to apologise, and it's a good example of the often deliberate misinterpretation of who Kirk was.

The left have reacted disgustingly and disgracefully and seem intent on doubling down and continuing to double down, including this thread where the OP, bizarrely, takes personal offense that a well known public speaker might be mourned by his followers after being publicly assassinated.

As an aside, 7.8 billion is about the whole world population.

@FOJN
I am not justifying his murder. If you had read my previous posts on this thread you would have known that. However, objecting to glorifying someone who was racist among other things does not equal justifying his murder.
The things you mentioned are not hearsay or misinterpretation of his words. There are videos online of him saying these things during public appearances. His words were quoted by news outlets long before his murder so they are not AI fakes created by “bad lefties” to taint his name.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1505741850455031

Yes, I agree a feeling a powerlessness can push people towards racism, which is as you say, exactly what we're experiencing with the rise of Reform.
However its important to remember who these racists are powerlessness in relation to. For this to be demonstrative that racism can flow in the opposite direction, from the powerless to the powerful, they would need to be powerless in relation to POC, which they're not.
They're powerlessness is relation to other white people more powerful than them. And in their frustration they're punching down on the people they still have power over, POC.

When you 'worked on planes' are you saying that women weren't required to pass a test to fly them? Do you have proof of that?

There is context to what he said, I've done the work of going and listening to what he actually said so I could make up my own mind. I could write an essay on what and why I disagree with him but I did not think he was a hateful person. He was very clear that violence is never the answer.

Wrong. Black population.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/metrics/how-many-black-people-are-in-the-world
quick google was enough to find out.

Okay this is embarrassing for you 😂

"you believe that “black” is as simply defined as a person of African descent, then the total number of black people in the world is about 7.8 billion (2020). Every person alive now, and every person who has ever lived is of African ancestry."

Like I said, total global population. I advise reading your sources before citing them, in future.

I agree that people who feel powerless (emasculated?) will often try and exert power over those lower down the chain. I think this dynamic can be common with bullies too. However, I still think anybody can be racist. If a black person refers to a Japanese person as 'a chink' this is still racism IMO even if Japanese people are generally more privileged in most measurable ways.

All this punching up/down stuff is just an offshoot of identity politics IMO. I'm not saying it can't be argued as a specific dynamic but it doesn't invalidate traditional definitions of racism. Until it at least changes in the dictionaries the old definition still applies.

So? She mentioned that she holds intolerant attitudes towards trans people so I expressed my objection to that. I’m not required to be silent about any form of discrimination .

What an absolute reach...

What context is needed to what he says in this clip about Michelle Obama for example? He mocks her in a very nasty way. There is no context which would make it right.
The tone he uses when he talks about black people is disgusting.
And of all people he picked Michelle Obama who is more of a person than a million Charlie Kirks.

Anyway, I don’t see any point in engaging with you anymore. Stay happy in your adoration for that racist.

OK then. Have a nice evening.

Ok, my mistake , should have read more carefully.Anyway even if there are only 1 million/billion black people in the world or whatever, I don’t believe they all posted on your feed so my point still stands.

CK was protestant.

Politely, would you mind not quoting me unless you actually have something to discuss? This is a busy thread, and it's frustrating to get a notification that someone has responded, only to find they actually have nothing to say.

Not seen many people post about the white man who shot three Ethiopian immigrants in late August either