To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

When I was in primary school the teachers used me as a spare TA, my job was to listen to other kids in my class reading and correct/teach them. I still can't believe it looking back. I was classed as a gifted child and extremely advanced with literacy so they seemed to give up on actually stretching me and just used me instead. This was around the ages of 6-10.

When I was in primary school it was considered a treat to get to go to the Infants class to listen to the little ones read 😂
I loved doing it.

When hasn't it been? A friend of mine said he knew he was making progress when a kid said to him 'Fuck off sir'! And that was 20 years ago.

I don't think it's something 'government' can sort out, it's a whole society thing. There need to be clear rules of acceptable behaviour, with penalties for non-compliance - school management need to be on board, teachers need to be on board, unions need to be on board and parents need to be on board.

Exactly. What’s “the government” supposed to do about it? It’s societal.

😂😂🤣 it’s societal! It’s the parents! Ok yes certainly and how does one change That, in a way which makes a difference within reasonable timescales? Fewer couples divorce ok? Ok. Fewer kids separated from parents ok? Ok. Earn more money ok? Ok. All good ideas but …. Etc.

What could a gvt do?? What a bizarre question.

Schools standardised for different types of kids. More grammars, more technical schools, more special needs schools. Bring back more early learning sure start centres, bring back youth clubs. Just examples of ‘what the gvt can do’.

That sounds nice, and very different to being used as the listener for your own peers and being expected to correct/teach them.

Yes, but that's very different from not learning anything in your own class because you are acting as a TA to your own peers rather than being allowed to do work that is appropriate to you.

At our primary, they have a buddying system between older and younger years, where children can volunteer to go and support learning in the reception and KS1 classrooms and ask to represent particular subjects they feel most confident in/passionate about. That is really positive and a good learning experience for the older children because the aim of it is to teach them leadership and it is separate from their own class learning, not meant to take the place of it.

What is different and not acceptable is when teachers don't have the capacity to stretch the more able kids by giving them interesting and challenging work, so just cop out by telling them to go and sit with a child in their own class who doesn't get it and explain it to them.

I used to be asked to explain things to other kids because I was academic and picked things up fast. I hated it because it made me unpopular - the perception of the other kids was that I was a swot and a know-it-all, and it made them feel stupid that someone their own age was being asked to teach them, so they resented having me foisted upon them, and it wasn't like I was a particularly skilled teacher either. What it taught me was to keep my head down, never answer in class if possible, and try to hide being clever because it would make people hate me.

Yes exactly the same as DD. Her teachers attitudes were very much 'Well we know she's going to get three Level 6s in her Yr6 SATs anyway so our work here is done.'

When ds was in year 6 he took a couple of maths lessons - obviously the teacher was in the room. The teacher said ds was a better mathematician than he'd ever be and there was nothing he could teach him! (This was a middle school and each subject had a 'specialised' teacher.)

@DarkPassenger1 @caravela at primary we did do a lot of work in groups so I assume we helped each other out.
I remember at secondary school in the first year we were mixed ability and sometimes certain children would be asked to explain something to others and help them out.
One of those children went on to become a teacher and headteacher. I guess he didn't mind helping.

My only experience is from DD starting high school nearly 20 years ago. Her entire first year was disrupted by a group of boys, nearly every lesson affected.
They’ve (government and LEAs) had over 20 years to sort this out!

So, how does that work? Do the teachers make recommendations?

No. You just move up each year.

Well that's preposterous. The poor kid who cant keep up dragging the quicker learner down. What a waste of teachers' time !

It's how the system in the UK has been for decades.
In very very rare circumstances a child might repeat a year (for example if they've missed a year of school for medical reasons) but repeating years (or jumping ahead) just doesn't happen in the UK.

Tell me about it. I had to teach 10 year old kids that couldn't read or write at the same time, in the same lesson as those with a normal range of ability.

So much of this comes down to parenting, and whether parents support the school. Secondary schools are often slammed on here for being so hard on kids with constant sanctions, detentions and isolations. In my opinion these do work - disrupt the class and get removed. The problem is when the parents don’t support it which just teaches the kids that the sanctions are basically optional. The triangular partnership between school, pupil and parent is so crucial.

My kids are at a grammar. I won’t pretend it’s the same a deprived area comp because it’s not, but of course there’s still bad behaviour and bloody hell the school is tough on sanctions. Nothing is ever left to slide. Every missed homework is recorded, and add up to detentions very quickly. Any disruption in a class is a single warning and then they’re booted out into isolation. The kids learn fast enough there’s no wiggle room because the parents largely back the school and facilitate the detentions etc. My kids are really happy because it creates an undisrupted learning environment. But as soon as you have parents who go kicking and shouting to the school over every detention, none of it works.

Factory work ?

Nothing wrong with factory work (although these days it's more warehouse/distribution work).

The setting I work at (part time) were saying we’d have an incredibly difficult child for part of the day (throwing chairs etc).
First he sat away, then we tried to engage (no eye contact) but by placing something in front of him, then he engaged, then he opened up, then he came and held our hands, then he wanted to help us, then we told him how clever he was, then he walked round holding our hands for the rest of the session.

All I saw was initial fear, a need to feel safe, and then a calm child once he knew he was in a place where he felt accepted and wanted.

We mustn’t exclude children or support an ethos that excludes children.
This child could go two ways

1. adults feel this child is unteachable, he never feels accepted or safe - exclusions and a further drain on society or
2. adults empathise, are willing to adapt their approach and find a way to make this child feel positive about himself. Then he will engage.

Does that make sense to you?

No not really.
I think in some circumstances repeating a year may be helpful for a child.
Unfortunately it's just not a "thing" in UK schools.

I think all options need to be explored before excluding a child. I’m not a fan of repeating a year, but better than exclusion.

Safer school officers. I think a lot of parents would engage more if schools were more open and transparent. An EHCP system that is impossible to navigate - with LA’s and schools having to break the law. Confident parenting and confident teaching which involves a genuine love of children, making them feel safe and clear boundaries - with a school working together as a team, including parents within that team.

It was like that at my crap comp in the 70s! Successive governments have had 50 years to sort out the disruption, but have failed to tackle it, in fact, it sounds like disruption/bullying etc has got worse rather than better. It's time we accepted the fact that the comprehensive "one size fits all" approach is a failure, but the politicians are so wedded to the idea that they're incapable of changing it.

As a PP said, we need a return to options, i.e. grammars, technical schools, specialist schools etc to give kids a proper choice of a school that suits them. We've had this "illusion" of choice where a kid can choose from a variety of local comps, but that's no choice at all as most comps do similar things.

We also need to change so that repeating a year becomes normal for those who need it, rather than something exceptional for a tiny number of people due to exceptional circumstances. And whilst we're at it, scrap the moving up a year based only on age - it should be on ability.

Do you think we should bring back children skipping a year as well if it's suitable for them? I know a few older people who did that when they were at school and it seems to have been a positive experience for them.