To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

I think if schools and class sizes were much smaller, more children with SEN would be able to cope in mainstream, and that would save money on SEN schools, which would help offset the cost. Because so many state special schools were shut down councils have to spend a fortune on private special schools, often run by dubious private equity concerns, which can cost up to £100k a year. If more children with SEN could cope in mainstream (and a lot more state special schools were opened for the children that can't), that would save plenty of money, and the smaller classes and schools would benefit all children.

Within a week of teaching in a state secondary school (in a "naice", affluent area), I'd made the decision that my daughter would be home educated for secondary school. So many elements of it are letting down so many children.

We were in your exact situation this time last year. The relief when we got DDs exam results and we knew they were over the pass mark was immense. She’s only been at the grammar just over a week and she keeps taking about the difference in lessons, how no one misbehaves or talks back to the teachers.

Fingers crossed for your dd, best of luck.

I started school in 1992 and we had one in my class, although she helped everyone, I vaguely remember sitting doing a writing task with her, she moved up the school with us and I suspect her job was actually to support one specific boy who had what in those days they called "learning difficulties". He was a sweetheart but was also bigger than most of the children. Sometimes he would get a bit agitated and when he was agitated he would try to hit people or throw chairs so she used to take him out of class to help him calm down. He went to my secondary school too and did have help there as well.

Exactly this. And when private schools get rid of students for poor behaviour/ substance misuse etc, the local Authority places them in a state school, which has no choice whether they want to take them or not.

Haven't rtft but saw this: the answer is "not qualified at all". Home educated children don't have to sit GCSEs, they don't have to be educated in the same way or the same subjects as school-educated children - the education just has to be appropriate for the child's age and ability, which gives a lot of freedom (which can be great and can be terrible!).

Being a qualified teacher isn't really a huge benefit to home educating, other than knowing where to find good resources. My PGCE and teaching experience ended up being mostly about behavioural management and, if I'm honest, crowd control - neither of which are particularly helpful with home educating a very quiet, focused, intelligent child! We use a mixture of traditional learning, following GCSE syllabi for various topics, combined with online tutoring and "life learning".

Do you mean that kids in the UK can move up a class even if they didn't pass their exams?

Sounds like a revelation for her. You must be so happy about it!

This thread is really highlighting issues, much more than reading an article about it. It seems overwhelming.

In the UK the 4 different varieties of education (for the 4 countries) don't have end of year exams taken every year.
There is no exam to "pass" in order to move up.

As someone who works in a PRU, we have them… they’re PRUs.

And FWIW all the kids in my small PRU are there because of behaviour issues that meant that they couldn’t be in mainstream anymore… out of the whole population 97% are FSM/PP, 85% have SEND, 43% are or have been looked after and 62% have attendance of 50% or less (just checked our database for the exact numbers).

So it’s not really a case of “well there should be somewhere for the badly behaved”, it’s actually a case of “there should be somewhere for the poor, disadvantaged and vulnerable”. When put like that it seems much easier to see what needs to be done and sounds way less reasonable to chuck them out of school.

I’m a primary teacher and I’m already exhausted and done in with the level of behaviour yet again. Nothing is being done and I do really fear for the future when these children become the adults in charge.
There are 5 children in my class who would never have been in mainstream education in the past. They can’t cope, the staff can’t cope and the other children can’t cope. We are traumatising all of these children.

There's no respect and a culture of expectation. There are threats of violence from children as young as 3 upwards, swearing, refusal to follow simple instructions.

We can’t teach the ones who are ready to and want to learn.

Like most of my colleagues I need to escape.

I’m in Scotland. We don’t have PRUs. There was only one permanent exclusion in the whole of Scotland in 2023/24. That’s treated as some sort of success. I think if all the kids hospitalised by violent bullies who are expected to go back unto
the same school as their abuser. It’s a truly disgusting situation.

It's about priorities in my mind and the government does not prioritise education. Their kids don't have to suffer through the same things that other kids do.

Exactly.

It absolutely is feasible.

It’s just not a priority, despite the fact that it makes economic as well as social sense.

Investing in excellent quality, child centred, nurturing education will prevent huge amounts of state spending in future, because it will reduce a considerable number of societal problems that cost us a fortune.

Around 50% of prisoners were excluded from school, for starters.

If education weren’t treated like a political football to be tossed here there and everywhere every five years to suit the agenda of each successive government, and we were prepared to invest, be patient and see decreasing class sizes as a ten year goal that couldn’t be scrapped by a new incoming government to save some cash, then we could revolutionise education in this country and bring about numerous benefits for our future society.

Absolutely. Anything’s possible if there’s a will. By not feasible, I meant they (any gvt) just won’t do it, it wouldn’t happen - for the reasons you describe above. And more.

I feel like we need some kind of mission statement for education. To decide what as a country we actually want it to do.

My effort is below:

The aim of the education system is to ensure that all citizens are properly equipped for life in modern Britain. All children should have learnt to treat one another and their teachers with respect and to work cooperatively with one another. All children should acquire core skills in numeracy, to be able to read and write fluently and to speak, discuss and answer questions. All children should have learnt to evaluate information such as news articles and to reason about practical numerical matters such as personal finances. They should understand the legal and political system in the UK and their role in it as citizens of a democracy.

All children should be prepared by their education to contribute to the economy of the UK through either employment or entreprenership.

Any children who are unable to achieve the above due to disability should be given extra support to achieve these goals as far as possible.

Those children who show the necessary aptitude and interest should have their intellectual skills stretched and be prepared for rigorous and challenging University courses.

Children who would prefer to do so should be given the opportunity to develop more practical skills in areas such as IT and business and high quality vocational training in trades or other sectors of the economy where skills are required.

Sorry Billy. Weird answer - Why would you think she would be 'messing around'? It's school - education - it matters for her, it can affect her entire future - please let her know that, and guide her yourself?? Even though she may not yet understand herself?, dear parent? x

@Arraminta
@Buddingbudde

Because schools twist the term ‘disruptive’. In fact I think the official line is ‘incompatible with the efficient use of resources’. My DC - at preschool - had a little book that he loved. The SENCO there taught him how to use it, and he’d point to the pictures to communicate his needs.

He had a placement in state school, but because he used this book : that was their reasoning for rejecting his placement.

The LA upped their funding giving the school £10000 and training on how to use the book (DC already knew how to use it).
He was reluctantly given a school place.

Within 2 weeks of being in state - the book was abandoned.
In my view, DC is not disruptive - he is extremely quiet. I’m sure you’d love the term ‘mute’ - so you can give DC a label.

Yet apparently his ‘book’ would cause him to be ‘disruptive’ to others.

And since his placement in state I have had to fight, and fight against the horrible sentiments that I see in this thread. I’ve had to fight against his SENCO using the term ‘handicapped’ to describe him. Fight against SENCO wording such as DC has a ‘tiny, squeaky voice’ or ‘just sits there not taking on instruction’ - when DC is actually reciting all phonic lessons at home.

Some people just seem to really dislike children or anything that impacts their idea of a perfect life.

Oh so you are trying to tell lies about me now and say it was all about me sitting in the garden? That's some childish twisting of what I said! I said his rage is abnormal and the way he is with his parents is horrific! I've also heard him hit his mother in the face as well as threatening his parents - and you are telling me that I should enjoy having to hear that!
That kid behind me is a kid that if I had kids, I wouldn't him near them at school because his rage is dangerous! It'll be even more dangerous when he's an adolescent! When he's getting dragged into a custody suite screaming at the coppers! You are the problem because you are weak, you are simpering and hate discipline and want to make excuses for every nasty undisciplined kid!

My 51 year old brother has been referred for an ADHD assessment but he's been told it'll be about 8 years waiting list! And that's because people like you who are weak parents want a medical justification for why their kids are out of control!

Oh dear, you are projecting because you've no control over your kid! The fact you simper that he's disruptive but really beautiful is just weird! The parents of the other kids in class that he's disrupting don't care how beautiful you think he is, you scream about his right to education but you are happy for him to destroy education for everyone else around him! Nobody is talking about borstals or institutions but your child shouldn't be allowed to cause disruption day and day out to all the other kids - that's fairness and common sense!

How does that work if they want to go to uni etc and need to have exam results?

They could do an access course, go to the open university, do a foundation year, or some courses will let you on with work experience relevant to the field. There are also other level 2 qualifications that arent gcse but are considered the same.

It would be an obstacle but not insurmountable. The legal requirement for education is a suitable full time education for thier age, ability and aptitude . So i'd think if you had a child that might go to university, doing no qualifications at all would mean you hadn't provided a suitable education.

I think you child is extremely lucky to have a parent like you to support his learning.

You are playing the martyr here! You also say your son is disruptive then say he isn't at all which is confusing.

You cannot adopt the immature approach that it's just people that don't like kids! Please read the post that's within the last couple of pages of this thread from a primary school teacher who says he avd his colleagues are at their wits end and looking to get out of the profession after just a week or two back in the job as primary school teacher! Because so many kids are undisciplined, volatile, tormenting and traumatising other kids and threatening teachers! And this is primary school kids!

Excuses cannot be made, we aren't suddenly in a world is ND! We are in a world where discipline has stopped. There's no fear of consequence at school because there's no consequences at home. How is this about people not liking kids? It's about the fear that a lot of kids will fail exams because of the disruption of others, the fear that this country will end up with mass shortage of teachers because no one wants to keep doing the job, it's about the NHS ring collapsed in terms of assesment of ND because every other parent wants to excuse bad behaviour with.

You seem so bloody blind to the truth of what's happening and coming out with nonsense extreme comments.