To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

Lesson plans are recorded year on year so there is no need for teachers continually to reinvent the wheel
CA portfolio of common lesson plans based on a parallel set of core materials are produced in school time.
This means that any replacement teacher knows instantly where is a particular class in the curriculum.

Any school can do that, I assume the reason they don't is because the National Curriculum keeps changing so teachers have to keep coming up with new lesson plans. Does Michaela follow the NC?

https://archive.md/1q5CH Αn accessible link to the article.

A sad and disgraceful example (SNP) of where one size does not fit all.

‘SCOTLAND: Keeping disruptive pupils in mainstream schools ‘ruins lives and learning’

UK government adviser decries ‘mass experiment’ which shies away from punishing troublemakers

Scottish pupils have become “guinea pigs” in a mass experiment which shies away from punishing troublemakers, a leading behaviour expert has warned.

Tom Bennett, a school behaviour adviser to the UK Department for Education, said the ethos of keeping persistently disruptive pupils in Scottish mainstream schools “ruins lives, people’s safety, dignity and learning”.’

I honestly don't think these "persistently disruptive" students would be that much of a problem if schools had a more skills led curriculum, with a lot more autonomy and choice.

Imagine if secondary schools didn't have 150 conversations a day about minor uniform issues because everyone just wore basic P.E. kit style uniform, if there were lots more practical subjects on offer, if after 14 pupils could choose to take functional maths and English plus their choice of options (e.g. technical college style courses), if pupils had the autonomy to leave classrooms when they're getting stressed / fidgety to go to pupil lounges or even the toilet if they want to. I'm sure there would still be issues but I honestly think it would be 100 times less of a battle and everyone would be so much happier (in general).

I think what Katharine Birbalsingh has doen at Michaela is remarkable. There huge numbers of kids there who are gaining results that would be unheard of elsewhere. The kids seem genuinely happy there too. Kids secretly like discipline. I say all this as someone who taught for 5 years in tough schools in depreived areas. If I had had a headteacher like Katharine I would perhaps have stayed in the profession. As it is I burnt out in 5 years.

The children who would most benefit from her style of school would be those from deprived backgrounds, those who would be in the second sets or lower on other schools and those who have middle class parents who are hands off or overly fussy complaining every time their child is displined however minor (both cause schools problems). These children all really benefit from strict structures.

It might be that children who from an early age understand the point of school, are well behaved and capable of deferment of enjoyment for later gain (ie gaining the grades for university or high quality graduate apprenticeship) can achieve highly in a less strict environment but these children are a tiny minority in most schools.

One answer might be grammar schools for those children that can cope with the freedom and are clearly academic from a young age and Michaela-style for the others who might discover they're academic under the strict regime. The Michaela school might still out-perform the grammar school - which would be interesting. However no government would admit that comprenhensive schools are a failure and those that succeed do so because, and only because, of catchment area.

Spot on and that's why Phillipson hates Michaela

I think we need a lot more data before we can say Michaela "works". For example:

• The % of EHCPs at Michaela vs London average.
• The % on SEN support at Michaela vs London average.
• The number of managed moves per year vs London average.
• Recent number and rate of suspensions and exclusions.
• Number of children removed from roll for various reasons (to electively home educate, change schools, move catchment but stay within London) in last few years.

I'd be really interested in talking to the parents of year 6 feeder schools as well, just to get anecdotal evidence and soft data.

It's not hard to imagine that Michaela has sort of ended up as a self selecting school.

What is the measure of a school? Should we criticise them for kicking out bad kids if it drastically improves the education of good kids who actually want to learn and get on in life?

I mean personally, yes I think we should criticise them for that. However, my point is, the success of a school is not exactly magic if they just eradicate (by one means or another) children who can't comply or who will skew their results.

It's a bit like everyone shaking their heads at a year 4 teacher and saying, 'why don't your class have GCSEs? The year 11 teacher manages.' The reading age alone of the secondary school kids who get suspended/ excluded is often around 8 years old. Just to access the whole curriculum over 5, 6, 7, 8, whatever subjects requires herculean effort from these children. Another equivalent would be expecting the average Mumsnetter to undertake an advanced mathematics degree, answering questions in front of the maths students, not allowed to go to the toilet, sitting through the whole course in weird little blazers then say 'oh just chuck them out if they're bad'.

The trouble is that we are talking about ‘bad’ kids.
Equating having SEN or coming from a deprived background with few boundaries etc to being bad.
I believe that few kids if any are ‘bad’ - it’s usually not their fault if they are.
Just like it’s not the dog, it’s the owner…..
We need parents to take more responsibility and that’s where a lot of this has gone wrong. There is an increasing minority of parents who don’t have the will / capacity to parent their children.

SEN children are not getting their needs met at school - and often not at home either.
A lot of the problems I am having in my classroom currently are SEN children having to follow expectations. Things such as not picking up an iPad all the time,running out of the room or having to do anything that they don’t want to at all.
I spoke to their parents- they said they just let them do what they like - choose what’s for dinner, go to bed when they want etc as they can’t bear the meltdowns.
The only exception is coming into school in the morning- when they arrive late so they can park outside and they carry them into the room and put them down, screaming. It’s not the child’s fault at all - but how am I supposed to teach my class?

@twinkletoesimnot

Yes, stereotypes/labels of ‘bad’ were absolutely put on my child before he’d set foot in the school door. Because he has an EHCP. He is quiet, compliant and making good progress at his own pace. But I’ve had discriminatory language such as school seeing fit to describe him as having a ‘tiny, squeaky voice’ on official reports.

The school wanted him in a specialist placement. There is lots of talk about ‘off rolling’ where decisions are made in the school’s best interests - whereas morally/lawfully it should be about the child’s best interests.

I read this weeks that Farage is on course for an outright majority as next PM. The majority opinion on this thread is a match for Reform education policy.

I see a shift in our society (I think driven by Covid) where we are becoming insular - driven by our wants/needs and pushing out others. I see the St George’s flag flying on lampposts - to represent this ethos. The thing that sets us apart from other animals is our ability to be social, to be civilised. Reform are more about that animalistic trait of ‘survival of the fittest’.
If Reform happens, I have no doubt my son will be discriminated against and segregated out to another place. Special schools are not havens, they are often places where many vulnerable students are placed together with high turn over of staff - or in worst case you have abuse like the school that was closed in the Wirral.

Bulgaria:

In Bulgaria, every citizen has the right to
education without discrimination based on
race, nationality, gender, ethnic or social
origin, religion or social status. Many Bul-
garian children, however, are denied access
to quality education and regularly face such
discrimination.
This represents a breach of one of the
basic human rights of these children,
recognised under the Convention on the
Rights of the Child. The existing education
model of “special schools” for children
with disabilities and learning difficulties, and
children from ethnic minorities, not only
causes stress and psychological damage,
but exacerbates social marginalisation,
eventually increasing the number of un-
employed and those dependent on social
assistance.
Save the Children UK worked in Bulgaria
to ensure that children are able to claim
their right to education without dis-
crimination. Our programme on inclusive
education focused on getting children
currently enrolled in ‘special schools’ into
mainstream schools.

I work at a state secondary school.
Let me tell you, these statistics can’t be right. There is SO much more chance of lessons being disrupted due to poor behaviour.

There are basically no real consequences for disruptive behaviour which is why it happens. It's as simple as that. When teachers try to enforce any consequences at all, the "mental 'elf" card can be deployed complete with all the institutionalised benefits victim status now confers. Nothing will change until that is dismantled.

In my DH's culture, kids who are testing the limits are sent back to their parents' home country for school. It always works

We can refer to badly-behaved kids without saying they are 'bad kids'. That their behaviour is bad is clear and undeniable. Bad behaviour can have lots of reasons and those reasons are not all SEND.
Schools must, can and do have things in place to try to help students with SEND and other issues to access the curriculum and be in lessons. And obviously not all students with SEND are at all disruptive. However, the learning of whole classes and cohorts of kids is being constantly disrupted by poor behaviour. Obviously this means the bady-behaved kids aren't learning either, so who exactly is benefiting from this?

TA support in secondary classes has massively reduced. Teachers can't teach the curriculum if they are constantly having to deal with disruption and keep disruptive kids in the room. Aside from removing kids from the classroom, what do people actually suggest should happen? Do people really think we should just accept that hours and hours of learning time is wasted week-in week-out?

For those who are interested, here are stats on pupil population at the Michaela School.

Michaela Community School - GOV.UK

Michaela Community School - Compare school and college performance data in England - GOV.UK

It's undersubscribed by nearly 100 pupils? For a really popular school?

The headteacher often points out that they have children who attend who haven’t applied but didn’t get into their school of choice so were given Michaela by the LA.

Imagine being that kid who wanted to go to a nice, normal school and you get forced to go to Michaela, only to be told if you don't like it you can go elsewhere (except you can't really).

Imagine being that child who has been told a lot of rubbish about Michaela and you end up really enjoying it and the school helps you get better results than you might have elsewhere.

The disruptive kids get attention and time poured into them and are then rewarded when they manage to behave for a relatively short amount of time.
The kids that just get on with it get fuck all.
It pays to be a twat at school.

I respect that many people will disagree but I fundamentally feel that approaches like those used by Michaela are cruel and not as effective as they first appear.

This has ALWAYS been the case sadly.

I remember at school, they promised that the kids with the highest SATs grades would get to go on a special trip. I got the highest. I wasn't invited. When I asked why, it was because they knew and expected I'd do well, so they were going to take kids that had done better than expected instead. Still sticks in my craw years later, the lesson that I learned that day. Be good, behave, study, do well, and your efforts will be taken for granted. Misbehave, or put in a bit of effort after not bothering for ages, and people will fall over themselves with applause and rewards.

My son is fairly bright and I'm conscious that at home we will need to keep encouraging and pushing and praising him for the work he does because at school the brighter kids tend to be ignored while attention is paid to the ones that are struggling. Instead of a balance where they support the ones having a hard time but also continue to support and push the ones doing well.

Very sad but true. DD is very bright and got three Level 6s in her Yr6 SATs. As far as I can make out she spent most of her Yr5 and Yr6 working as an unpaid TA to those children on the bottom tables in the classroom.

I did similar in primary school. Though long before SATS. I was asked to sit with other kids whilst they read etc. Yes a 5yr old TA I suppose. That was a long time ago. It’s just even worse now, in all the ways.

Same with me! I'm 60 and there were over 40 dc in our class (3 forms per year) and I remember having to help a class mate with his reading and spelling.

Yeah, my dd has just started year 7 and she and a few of her classmates were basically being used as unpaid, mini TAs in year 5. The teachers were laughing about it at parents evening. We put a stop to it.

To be fair, the head teacher was very apologetic and it did stop.

we live in a shithole and there are huge behaviour issues at the primary school. So children like dd were basically being used to help out the teachers. Absolutely not on.