To think disruptive behaviour in schools is out of hand?

[Absentosaur]

‘Children at state schools are almost three times more likely to have their lessons disrupted by poor behaviour than their privately educated peers, a widespread survey of parents has found.’

https://archive.md/HMGtJ accessible link to article .

18% 16-18yr olds go to private school, probably for this reason a lot of the time.

Do we expect the government to do something about it, particularly given they have closed the private school doors to many? What could they be doing to improve the worst state schools??

Sorry, are you likening taking prescribed medication to manage a diagnosed neurological problem to "taking stimulants to churn out work"?

Yes it seems that they are

well come on, Adderall in USA, and we know the UK looks at the USA, get some ADHD, legal, prescribed medications, use them slightly differently to be a mild performance enhancing drug, is that beyond comprehension?

Many USA uni students, at Ivy League universities are on them.

I mean there are parents buying gummies to get their young children to sleep in car parks, it's natural, little nudge, bit of help here and there with prescribed medicines, but use in a different way.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility. And not illegal. Immoral perhaps. Or perhaps not, why shouldn't people use brain drugs like they use body drugs? It's a huge grey philosophical area.

If a scandal was exposed, and I am not saying it is going to be, but if it was, personally I wouldn't be that surprised, would anyone really?

We are not talking about the occasional chatting here are we.

Like they do with Adderall in the USA. It's not unheard of.

Where is your evidence? You haven't got any so you're just spouting bullshit

I do know of private school and state school pupils who regularly go to class high on weed, they take brownies in.

To think that teenagers are not going to be teenagers and push boundaries is naive.

Clearly it's not performance enhancing, but to think that teenagers, even ones at posh schools are not getting high in one way or another, well that's just not true.

Boarding schools are the worse!

Same here. It took 3 years to get my DS into a specialist setting and he required a 1:1 TA from pre-school onwards. He was asked to leave an independent school after Reception, and then his state primary said it couldn't meet need within the first half-term. He was absolutely disruptive within those 3 years and I had a great deal of sympathy with the state school when it put him onto an (unlawful) reduced timetable. He was violent to staff and pupils alike, all documented and shared with the LA.

I suspect most of the other parents, not to mention the teachers, breathed almost as big a sigh of relief as me when DS was offered a specialist place. The specialists are incredible at managing his behaviour and keeping him regulated, but it doesn't come cheap (c. £100k pa per child).

It's a tough gig being a SEN parent. People don't want our DC in mainstream schools if they are disruptive, which is fair enough. But the flipside is that society will need to fund appropriate SEND support, which often is a different setting and costs more per child, and is diametrically opposed to recent policy decisions for mainstreams to be inclusive because it's cheaper.

In an ideal world, yes. However, a lot of reception age children arrive unable to eat by themselves hold a book, sit still, or be relied upon to be toilet trained. This is entirely the responsibility of the parents. It is also the case that in a class of 25 children there could be as many as 10 with additional needs, and perhaps five who are completely disruptive. Obviously, interventions are put into place, behaviour strategies are introduced, and an extreme cases suspensions or time outs are implemented. These usually have little effect and the kids are back, telling the staff to fuck off, within days. Being called ‘a fat lazy cunt’ by a 6 year old is nothing. Having to evacuate a class of 30 nine year olds, because two of their classmates decided to fight, throw computers, and smash desks, is not uncommon. Low level disruption can take 30% or more of the time allotted to each lesson.

I absolutely agree that all children should have access to education, but while we are bending over backwards to accommodate children with additional needs, we should also be aware of the impact on the children who are behaving and willing to learn.

Without massive investment and a complete restructuring of the education system, particularly early years, nothing will change.

You mean it’s not even included in the school fees?

I sent my child to a private school, and yes the behaviour was better than what I hear about from her friends who went to state schools. But I would not have sent her to Michaela if you paid me. The draconian discipline is bad enough but also there is a lot of rote learning, an extremely limited curriculum and no creative subjects or PE at GCSE.

Although the better behaviour was a bonus, what I actually wanted and got from the private school was a really wide ranging curriculum, loads of creative and other co-curricular opportunities and a relaxed environment with as few rules and regulations as possible.

DD thrived. Michaela would probably have broken her.

I actually think the petty rules and regulations that exist at a lot of comprehensives that are less strict than Michaela make pupils disengage. My friends' children (who are largely bright and conscientious) seemed to get detentions and punishments for the most ridiculous things. The stupid rules about when you can wear a coat, what colour your socks are, being punished for things outside your control, are just awful for children. If you are going to get into trouble whatever you do, why be good?

I’d say it’s 50% down to demographic and 50% down to good school leadership. I teach at a very large (1800 pupil) state secondary in a suburban area of East Anglia. Disruptive kids are in the minority and are subject to sanctions, plus they tend to be moved into calmer classes where they don’t have such an appreciative ‘audience’ - it’s amazing how quickly that calms things down. I taught years 7 and 9 today and each lesson was calm, focused and productive.

Five miles down the road in town, teachers were striking last year because they felt unsafe due to pupil behaviour and let down by school leadership.

Sure, we still moan about pupil behaviour, but I don’t think that everywhere is falling apart.

I agree completely, the support should start antenatally. The first three years are the most important for development thats when a robust support system needs to be in place. I was a big advocate of the children’s centres but I’m not sure they were given long enough to really see results.
what’s very clear is the current system of getting children in childcare as soon as possible is not solving any problems re children being ‘school ready’ in fact arguably it’s got worse.

Honestly people need to stop with blaming covid for every wrong in the world. Grown adults have become increasingly entitled which manifests in all areas of their lives, including their children. At the same time people are increasingly trying to blame other people for their complete lack of accountability and total refusal to inconvenience themselves.

I think this used to be the case with PRUs and APs but not so much anymore…They are more full for a start with much larger classes (as there are more exclusions from mainstreams and a huge focus on attendance and they also take in a lot of the increasing number of EBSA kids and those with anxieties and ASD who have anxieties about mainstream.) Often these students still expect GCSEs and the expectations much higher than a decade ago.

Not as much pressure with Progress 8 - but the sense of entitlement to GCSE passes and expecting work and grades given is not like it was for me in the 00s when I was in PRUs - so I’m told by ex colleagues. If state maintained PRU they still need National Curriculum and still need GCSE (but with Functional skills offered as a pathway.) However, I’m told many students no longer recognize they cannot access GCSE work and expect the GCSE paper to be the same level of work they encounter in day to day lesson with lots of close exercises, word searches and writing frames - and don’t understand they are required to produce and provide a sustained written response. Interesting as I met with friends yesterday and we spoke about this!

But that's not what you originally said. You said you thought independent schools were drugging pupils. That's a serious accusation.

Drug taking can be rife in ALL secondary schools.

Here's a comparison (admittedly a few years ago but I don't have access to get a newer one) of GCSE subjects offered at Michaela and a couple of other schools nearby.

Does it make any difference where the data comes from? I think everyone commenting says it rings true!

My SEN child would bloody love it. For them rules are to be followed, and they get really upset when people don’t.

It’s so frustrating.

I think our culture towards learning has suffered and now more parents don’t believe in education, and so they pass down this belief to their kids.

A friend told me that they moved their DD to another school and that school encourages learning, but it’s not just the teachers, it’s the students. They want to learn, it’s cool to learn and join clubs. And we need to find a way to engage parents and children in education so that they have more respect for it.

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ totally agree. It’s only that PP said we wouldn’t find that in the guardian…

Covid and brexit. People use them as excuses for all sorts of things to which they’ll have very little or no relation.

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/nov/21/private-and-state-school-pupils-gcse-results-are-now-the-same-study-finds

I just said bet it's not unheard of

Which isn't a "serious accusation" - more of a "I really wouldn't be shocked if it came out in a Panorama documentary"

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/apr/07/england-state-school-pupils-as-happy-with-life-as-private-school-peers-survey