To think promiscuous men should be shamed more?

[TheJoyOfWriting]

This, really. The whole body count discourse is the latest version of slut-shaming, as it's mostly aimed at women. Promiscuous men are still given status by other men and by women, too often.

The body count arguments that people use against women can be used against men just as easily. Promiscuous men are more likely to cheat. They are more likely to have STDs. They are more likely to have contributed to an 'oops' baby- it takes 2 to make one, and more likely to walk away after w no consequences.

Promiscuous men often dump women after pretending to be interested to get sex, esp on datjng apps, which fuel this kind of behaviour. Women tend to find ONSs less satisfying, often partly bc these kind of men often don't care about giving pleasure, just taking it.

The idea that a man's worth is measured by how many women he has sex with is very bad. It encourages men to treat women badly, and it fuels the incel culture by making men feel insecure & unmanly if they're not sexually successful.

Thoughts? I don't mean we should call Promiscuous men horrible names or talk about them like 'run through' or 'high mileage cars' the way some men do about promiscuous women. But I think they should be shamed more, by both men and women.

I don't think casual sex is bad per se, but I think the culture of it has got out of control, and Promiscuous men share a lot of the blame.

Well, it can be an effective one.

Societies have always used shaming as a way to control, depending on the fashionable morality of the time. Nowadays in the West we are freer about individual sexual behaviour but much more censorious about say, racial or sexual discrimination, or sexual relationships between older men and young women/ girls. A couple of generations ago this situation would have been reversed.

Nothing wrong with sex (even casual/ons etc) as long as both parties are fully consenting adults.
Why should we shame anyone for what they do with their own bodies?!
I don’t see how you made the leap from ‘we shouldn’t slut shame women’ (which I agree with!) to instead let’s slut shame everyone; rather than the more obvious idea of no one being slut shamed.

Totally agree, but the problem always seems to be: is one party (nearly always the man) deceiving the other about the nature of the encounter? I get the strong impression that promiscuous men aren’t honest about the fact that all they want is a ONS, and I think this is a man problem - I’d bet women don’t go in for this kind of deception anywhere near as much.

I am gen Z and I don't see a problem with men or women having casual sex. Why shouldn't people do what they want with the their bodies and enjoy sex?

I do agree that porn culture is the real issue.

I'm not sure about this, I think this clamour to destigmatise everything has brought all manner of deviant behaviours out in the open, when I much preferred the days when they remained underground and we didn't need to be exposed in public to their various fetishes and anti social behaviours. Bring back shame, it existed for a reason.

Consent is the absolute lowest bar

What's your point? Obviously consent is the bare minimum.

Craigslist dating started in 1996.
Tinder started in 2012
Eharmony started in 2000
Even Ashley Madison started in 2002

I first used the internet when I went to university 29 years ago. I first got home internet in 1998. The idea that any generation before Gen Z didn't have the internet is absurd.

Nobody should be shamed for having willing sex with a willing partner. Nobody. Shaming promiscuous men does nothing to stop the shaming of women.

That said, I wouldn’t want sex with a guy who’d shagged half my acquaintance.

Well that doesn't really make sense aa they are having sex with each other
I had a fair few one night stand s when i was single
I wasent really very good at them because I usually ended up falling for them but I don't blame the men for my feelings .

I don't know, I get the impression that something's changed but I'm not on the scene; most of what I know about 2020s dating is from Mumsnet!

It seems as though women are more earnestly searching for commitment and hoping that either having or withholding sex will achieve it, while men are eagerly searching for a heavily-notched bedpost. This is an insanely reductive view that has never been true. I doubt it is today.

I do believe the 'manosphere' influences men & boys to believe they will struggle to get enough sex, has revived the sexual double standard, and promotes the idea that sexual violence is desirable. All of that is blatantly misogynistic.

I don't believe women should be guided by misogynistic arseholes, and am surprised that a "fierce feminist" would parrot their views in the guise of concern for women.

I think the OP is confusing pre internet generations, which would, broadly be baby boomers and earlier as Gen X basically invented the internet, with digital natives. But Gen Z is often referred to as the first digital native generation because even the oldest, who are knocking on 30 now, had cell phones and internet access as kids so ‘grew up’ with it pervading their lives. Of course so did millennials by and large so many of them will also be digital natives as well. The use of the internet to ‘hook up’ started with Gen X though, and was widespread for millennials. So I have to say I don’t think Gen Z have invented the internet, hooking up or casual sex 😂

You say in your OP that a man's worth is measured by how many women he has had sex with- and I notice that you are only 19. I'm in my 40s and I dont know any man or woman who puts value in how many women a man has had sex with and haven't heard this since my teens/early 20s. Trust me, once you grow up you will realise it's not the issue you think it is.

I don’t value anyone’s worth with how many folk they’ve shagged.

im old enough to be your mother. And ive had a lot of sex, in relationships, FWBs, fuck buddies and one night stands.

I feel zero shame for that.

No one needs to be shamed for having lots of casual sex. I've had plenty of one night stands and casual hookups. Im a well adjusted, normal decent person.

The problem is those who think it's ok to shame women but not men. They shouldn't be shaming anyone!

I think shame has value in some circumstances and highly promiscuous sexual behaviour from both sexes is one of them.

The pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that monogamy and also straightforward sex itself is seen as boring, unadventurous.
There is even a new term “vanillia” used as an insult.

As with most issues there is a middle line.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

I found the opposite about sex. It made me angst ridden. I didn’t want to be a notch on a bedpost

This is what it comes down to for me: promiscuous sex is still something society largely sees as something men do to women.

I’m past the age of hookup culture but when I was younger I always experienced this weird cognitive dissonance with casual sex: I would both feel good about it in myself but also feel judged for having “let it happen to me”. There was (maybe still is) a weird double standard that a man doing it was sowing wild oats and a woman was automatically being used, even when she freely consented and didn’t want any commitment.

I came out of various one night stands initially feeling fine and over time people would chip away at my self esteem saying things like “you know he just wants to shag around, right?” You end up being painted as gullible and vulnerable because you haven’t held out and it’s assumed that you’re the one who wants commitment when the man doesn’t. It may be different today and I dare say Gen Z are savvier but in the 80s/90s it was still very much seen as something that reduced a woman’s value.

I don’t think anyone of either sex should be shamed for promiscuity unless they are cheating, having unsafe sex or misleading the other person as to their intentions. The problem comes around mixed signals and unclear expectations.

Bizarre OP, all people should be able to choose how many and who they want to sleep with. Sadly too many cultures and faiths stifle the sexual experiences and maturity of huge numbers of men and women, that is what needs to be called out.

It’s really no one else’s business as long as it is consensual which is probably a tough concept to grasp for curtain twitching prudes…

I don’t know if there’s a ‘male’ equivalent of MN (I do realise MN doesn’t exclude men, but I’d guess they’re in the minority), but if so, I wonder if there are numerous sad posts from men who’ve been hurt by a woman who deceived them into sex with the promise (too strong a word…perhaps implication) of an actual relationship. MN often contains such posts and I find them depressing in their predictability.

Do you really not see that things like OLD and the idea that women should be as promiscuous as some men plays absolutely into the hands of the most cynical and unscrupulous men? I bet OLD was dreamt up by a man! And that’s OK - just admit it’s a way for men and women (in the case we’re discussing) to hook up for casual sax. I have no issue with that. But that ISN’T how OLD is sold. It’s sold as a way to find a relationship, and that adversely affects women more than men - I’d put money on it.

I don’t understand how the above is incompatible with feminism. Damn - there’s a very feminist book on this very topic - the myth of sexual freedom - which argues this and I can’t remember the title or author. Will try and find it.

Gosh you’re quite the little puritan.

I am in my 40s and I cannot tell you the peace that comes with realising that actually you don’t have to give a fuck about what other people do, if it doesn’t affect you.

You’re conflating different things. You can sleep with a lot of people without treating them badly (physically or emotionally) or being misogynistic. As you say, people have always shamed women for sleeping around, it’s not a Gen Z thing. You don’t fix shame by adding more shame.

100%. I’m in my forties and when I was younger there was a lot of calling women slags if they were seen as promiscuous etc (that wasn’t invented by Gen Z) but as you get older you barely think about it.

Anyone, male or female should be free to shag who they like if they are single and consenting. There's no shame attached to sex itself, it's just an outdated social construct. The shame should be for those that cheat if in a monogamous relationship.

Absolutely 100% disagree!

neither sex should be shamed for having sex.

as long as both parties consent then frankly it's nobody's business. And no one should judge.

I agree with other posters - it's not casual sex that's the issue, it's the double standards.

@GarlicPint The Sex Myth by Rachel Hills is the book I was trying to remember.