Trying to salvage friendships after a terrible holiday

[ChaosIsMyCardo]

Hi, this is my first post. I am hoping someone can help me unpick a disastrous trip with some friends and our kids that I'm worried may have ruined friendships and I'm not quite sure what to do.

I recently went on a two night trip away in the UK with two school friends and our kids. Each of us has a four yo and one also has a baby.

One of these friends has the same day off as me so we have spent lots of time together over the last four years and our boys have had lots of fun together. They both have quite different personalities (my son is very sensitive and can be shy, whereas hers is more assertive and outgoing) so they've occasionally had their moments, but generally they have a great time together.

The other friend has a 4yo daughter (and baby boy) and we don't see each other as often and we are quite different people, but there is a trust between us that comes from knowing each other since childhood.

So, we had all booked this trip as a nice little get together before the kids start school. I knew it wasn't going to be a relaxing break but I still thought we'd have some lovely moments and the mums would have a nice catch up. I was wrong!

As soon as we all arrived in the house, things seemed very fraught and stressful. The dynamics between the kids were in constant flux with seemingly one always left out (to be expected with three, I guess), but the primary conflict seemed to be between the boy and girl of my friends. They weren't getting along and the boy would often lash out at/hit the girl. The girl would then come and tell the boy's mum, who would admonish the boy not to hit, but I could tell she was becoming increasingly frustrated with scolding him.

She is a very "gentle " parent, very in tune with his needs and his biggest advocate (as any mum ought to be), and in her view, the girl was teasing and winding her son up, which was just as bad as hitting, and she was annoyed that only her son was being told off.
I think she was annoyed with the girls mum for not being more present to referee the older kids. This mum did however also have a 9mo to take care of.

The girls mum is very upset because, from her point of view, she witnessed the boy not being very nice towards her daughter and felt unable to say anything, and she acknowledges that they are all only four and these things are to be expected. She also feels upset because the boys mum did not really engage with her speak to her for the whole trip, and they have not really spoken since.

I know this is largely between them, but I am not sure what to do as they both want to talk to me about their thoughts on this. I want to be honest and supportive with both, without betraying the other.

I haven't been able to be completely honest with the boys mum as I think she has been quite unreasonable in the defense of her son (e.g. by criticising the other child in a way she would not accept from others about her child) rather than just acknowledging they are all four and this will happen.

I don't feel able to say this to her as she is very defended around this and I don't want to hurt her or risk our friendship.. As another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more (maybe, I dunno) I don't think she was intentionally malicious in any of this, but I do feel bad for the other friend who was essentially told her daughter is a shit stirrer and has now been ostracised by the boy mum, who is still very annoyed with her in a way that is quite irrational in my view.

Does anyone have any advice/ similar experience / insight into any of this?
Than you for reading if you got this far

Isn't this between the two of them? I'm unclear as to why you need to be involved. If they speak to you about it, can't you simply be neutral and say "yes, it's difficult for both of you" and then change the subject. Don't feed the drama imo

Stay as out of it as you can and don't go on any more group trips like this

This. Not your problem.

It was a poorly thought-through break, and with children of that age suddenly thrown together, continual arguments were predictable. It's not clear how much time the girl and either boy had spent together, but if the boys knew one another quite well and she didn't really know either, and is also dealing with having a new baby sibling, surely it was obvious that this wasn't going to be plain sailing for anyone?

I think this isn’t any of your business tbh - I would keep out. And also no - girls are not complex and perhaps ‘get way with more’

When you talk to your friends ‘such a shame the kids didn’t get along, you can’t force it can you, adults only meet ups from now on’ is all you need to say. Don’t wade into who was right or wrong. They’re 4YOs so the answer is always simultaneously neither and both.

My hunch: the boy is aggressive and assertive and used to dominating. The girl stood up to him ... and got hit.
You are wise to stay neutral though. Just keep saying neutral stuff. Trip was a bad idea. Personality clash. They're very young. Etc.
Then keep an eye on your son's friendship with the other boy. Make sure he isn't being overly dominated by him.
It was a lovely idea to organise the trip. Sorry it went to shit x

When you say you ‘haven’t been able to be honest’ what you mean is you don’t want to upset the apple cart of your friendship with this mum. So on that basis stay out of it and don’t comment.

Stay out of it as much as possible, don’t comedown on a side if you don’t want to, continue to see them both separately if you want to.

Four year olds cannot be shit-stirrers, surely. It’s a long time since I’ve had to deal with one, admittedly.

It's a shame these 2 women can't realise kids often fall out, especially at such a young age as personalities clash etc.
I wouldn't be discussing each one behind their backs, it'll come back to bite you. Say you have differing parenting techniques and its a shame to lose a friendship over young children and move the conversation on. Hopefully the friendship can move on, but I wouldn't be meeting up with the kids involved. Keep it to the 3 of you.

Just say to both that you like them and the other and you won't discuss it with them, because of the respect that you have for both of them. And then steer well clear!

I think you have a choice. Either be true to what you really think and when boy mum speaks to you about it be honest and defend girl mum, or tell both mums you don't want to get involved and don't intend to talk about either of the others behind their backs. The worst thing you can do is sit and listen passively while they complain about each other to you. This is disloyal to both and often has a strange habit of circling round so you're at fault.

Unless you witness each and every interaction, it's nigh impossible to determine rights or wrong where small children are concerned. (Although I'm not sure I would have liked the implication that the girl who was hit must have somehow provoked it.)
Having said that, I'd keep well out of it.

I know they're only four and probably well matched physically and not able to do much damage, BUT I can't believe he was given the opportunity to hit her more than once.Why didn't an adult physically separate them until they'd calmed down?

... in her view, the girl was teasing and winding her son up, which was just as bad as hitting... I know this is the boy's mum's view, not yours, but - yikes!! It is NOT. It also sounds like the girl wasn't being told off because the boy didn't tell anyone what she was doing, but just hit her?

The boy's behaviour was of course unacceptable; he should tell an adult if someone's teasing him rather than smacking that person. The girl's behaviour may have been bad too, but if no adult was close enough to see/hear her teasing, then the only way it would have been addressed was by the boy complaining to an adult instead of smacking. Frankly, I wouldn't have any patience with the boy's mum's excuses; whether or not you tell her that is up to you but please don't agree with her nonsense.

I think you've got the best advice here but I just wanted to say that, here in Mexico four-year-olds aren't allowed to hit other children

Stay out of it, the group doesn't work, such is life. If you can see them individually without any hassles, do so.

In my opinion you are best not getting involved and staying neutral.

“I’ll be honest I don’t want to get involved, you’re both my friends and I love you both deeply. I hope you manage to sort things out between yourselves”

Then refuse to comment, agree, disagree, gossip with anything else they try and say about it.

Knowing your friend gets defensive and it could cause a falling out between you. I would keep my opinions to myself as you will look like you are taking sides.

I have known people in the “middle” end up the one being left out when friends make up again as they see you as 2 faced or happy to gossip about each other

It sounds like the 4 year olds were playing away from where you as adults were sitting because otherwise you would all be witness to what went on. I can understand wanting to catch up and let them get on playing together, but the first time the boy hit the girl, the boy should have been given a consequence and following on from that both parents should have supervised much more closely knowing that they couldn't play safely together out of sight or ear shot.

Having said that, I think it's best if you stay out of it, don't take sides and just acknowledge they both feel hurt and suggest an adults only meet up in the future.

You and the other boy mum seem to be going out of your way to excuse the boy's violent behaviour. You're making out like the 4 year old girl is some conniving, manipulative shrew who had it coming. She's 4 for fucks sake. And the victim of repeated violence. After the first hitting incident why didn't the boy's mum supervise her child more closely?

Have you considered the girl's behaviour was actually completely fine and all she did was not give into the more assertive child?

From what I can gather, you and boy mum are besties and she wants you to bash girl mum with her, but you think she's in the wrong and don't want to tell her that but also don't want to agree with her.

Just change the subject.

Not your sink, not your washing up.

Stay out of it. It does sound like the children needed much more supervision than they got. Boy mom seems to be justifying his violence which is concerning.

When you say Salvage friendships... which friendships do you mean?
Do you mean the friendships between the two of them?
Or are you worried about your own friendship with each of the?

You mention that you've known one mum for a long time... but the other one has the same day off as you.

The "holiday" is over. You can just go back to your own routine.
If one brings it up I'd say.. It was unfortunate that the kids just didn't get on, but they are only four and change the subject.

It sounds as if they are both on your case... and maybe you need to be a bit more assertive with them. I'm not sure why you are wringing your hands over whether the two of them get on...that's up to them and not your problem.

The trials and tribulations of holidaying with friends and their kids.
You can't fix this.
I think you need to stay out of it.
I can see both sides of the coin but I do agree with you on the "gentle parenting" of the boy's mum which is at the core of it all

I agree with pp that it sounds like the boy's mum is being very unreasonable here. She needs to stop victim blaming and deal with her son (I say that as a parent of both sexes). I understand it's awkward for you to say that though.