Trying to salvage friendships after a terrible holiday

[ChaosIsMyCardo]

Hi, this is my first post. I am hoping someone can help me unpick a disastrous trip with some friends and our kids that I'm worried may have ruined friendships and I'm not quite sure what to do.

I recently went on a two night trip away in the UK with two school friends and our kids. Each of us has a four yo and one also has a baby.

One of these friends has the same day off as me so we have spent lots of time together over the last four years and our boys have had lots of fun together. They both have quite different personalities (my son is very sensitive and can be shy, whereas hers is more assertive and outgoing) so they've occasionally had their moments, but generally they have a great time together.

The other friend has a 4yo daughter (and baby boy) and we don't see each other as often and we are quite different people, but there is a trust between us that comes from knowing each other since childhood.

So, we had all booked this trip as a nice little get together before the kids start school. I knew it wasn't going to be a relaxing break but I still thought we'd have some lovely moments and the mums would have a nice catch up. I was wrong!

As soon as we all arrived in the house, things seemed very fraught and stressful. The dynamics between the kids were in constant flux with seemingly one always left out (to be expected with three, I guess), but the primary conflict seemed to be between the boy and girl of my friends. They weren't getting along and the boy would often lash out at/hit the girl. The girl would then come and tell the boy's mum, who would admonish the boy not to hit, but I could tell she was becoming increasingly frustrated with scolding him.

She is a very "gentle " parent, very in tune with his needs and his biggest advocate (as any mum ought to be), and in her view, the girl was teasing and winding her son up, which was just as bad as hitting, and she was annoyed that only her son was being told off.
I think she was annoyed with the girls mum for not being more present to referee the older kids. This mum did however also have a 9mo to take care of.

The girls mum is very upset because, from her point of view, she witnessed the boy not being very nice towards her daughter and felt unable to say anything, and she acknowledges that they are all only four and these things are to be expected. She also feels upset because the boys mum did not really engage with her speak to her for the whole trip, and they have not really spoken since.

I know this is largely between them, but I am not sure what to do as they both want to talk to me about their thoughts on this. I want to be honest and supportive with both, without betraying the other.

I haven't been able to be completely honest with the boys mum as I think she has been quite unreasonable in the defense of her son (e.g. by criticising the other child in a way she would not accept from others about her child) rather than just acknowledging they are all four and this will happen.

I don't feel able to say this to her as she is very defended around this and I don't want to hurt her or risk our friendship.. As another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more (maybe, I dunno) I don't think she was intentionally malicious in any of this, but I do feel bad for the other friend who was essentially told her daughter is a shit stirrer and has now been ostracised by the boy mum, who is still very annoyed with her in a way that is quite irrational in my view.

Does anyone have any advice/ similar experience / insight into any of this?
Than you for reading if you got this far

I am not liking your unreasonable friend based on your op. You say she is unreasonably defensive and criticise other friend’s dd in a way she would never accept criticism of her son.
I completely understand you don’t want to get involved in this. Just tell them you would prefer that they sort themselves out. I also don’t agree girls get away with more than boys.
This kid is assertive, confident, her mother is her advocate but seems like don’t want to be his teacher while boy is hitting another girl. Don’t get involved in this scenario. But make sure this confident boy with over indulging mum does not become bossy with your shy child.

Sounds like a nightmare and reminds me not to go on holiday with other people and their kids

I agree

They are not allowed to hit anywhere.

I agree with this.

It’s none of your business and I’d keep well out of it.

I also don’t think girls “get away with more” - in general they get away with less imo (I have one of each so no bias) as people expect more of them.

At four, there’s not reason why a boy (or girl) should think hitting is OK unless they’ve been allowed to think that. If she was saying things that upset him, he should have been coming to an adult.

It sounds a bit like no one was supervising these 4 yos closely enough.

This makes sense.

It sounds like the boys mum is going to be a shit MIL. When her precious boy acts like a dick it will be his partner’s fault and you can be sure she will take his side if he has an affair or is abusive etc. There’s being loyal to your kids and there’s being absolutely blind and wilfully ignorant to their faults.

An early example of female discovering that if she calls out male misbehaviour that she knows she wouldn't be able to get away with, SHE will be the one labelled a troublemaker. Poor kid, hopefully she isn't aware that she's got a lifetime of this ahead of her.

I haven't been able to be completely honest with the boys mum as I think she has been quite unreasonable

You're child wasn't on the receiving end of her sons aggression. So you're happy to ignore it.

Dont expect everyone else to go along with this.

Yea, and the slapping boys mother is so gentle and sensitive, the OP is afraid of bring it up......easier to allow a little girl be slapped.🙄

Unbelievable.
Explains so much about how abusive men are reared from a young age... .no boundaries, reared to believe slapping is acceptable.

I would give the pair of you the widest berth.

Boy mum sounds like typical “my little prince can do no wrong” mum which leads to grown men still being excused for poor behaviour.

nothing to do with being a boy. The kid sounds like a nightmare little shit.

stay out of it.

It depends on what you want your future relationships with these Mums to be, if at all. The advice saying stay out of it is naiive, because you were THERE and saw it all happen. If you had not been, then yes, stay out of it and stay neutral (something you will need to embrace as your child gets older).

It gets much harder when your child comes home with stories about what happened at school and it's tempting to jump in to 'protect' them but that's a big mistake. As one of my DCs teachers told me, when I asked her if she knew anything about an incident, (I wanted to make sure my DC was behaving themselves), if you believe half of what they say and I believe half, the truth is in the middle and she was spot on.
In other words don't take on board every little thing they tell you - it will have blown over in a couple of days.

I always find honesty is the best policy. For example, if you say nothing and the boy keeps hitting others, a pattern develops, but you said nothing to his Mum for fear of your friendship, aren't you doing her a disservice? You sound like her closest Mum friend. If I was her I would hope my friend would help me see things from another perspective. It may be better to sit down all 3 of you (without the baby), like the adults you are, instead of separate conversations like school kids.

Going away with a baby the girl's Mum had her hands full, but she should not have expected you to basically care for her daughter. Given your closeness with boy Mum, she was probably also feeling left out. Her anxiety would have been felt by her daughter. You seem to be standing back like it had nothing to do with you but did little to include the girl in an established friendship with the boys. At that age, showing them works better than telling them.

As a Mum of adult children, I've been there and got the tshirts. Kids need to learn to get along but most importantly they need their parent to be a parent.
They don't need another friend.

Were you not in the same room as the children to witness what was going on? 4 year olds still need some element of supervision - surely. Especially if two of them don't know each other very well and you don't know the history of how they interact together. The boy mum should have made sure she was present the first time her ds hit the girl. How did she know the girl was 'manipulative' if she didn't witness their play?

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Pretty shocked by most of these comments tbh…

If I understand correctly, you’re the link yes? You know them both, but they don’t know each other before this trip?

Either way, your friend with the little girl had a 9 month old baby with her and instead of being supported by the other mums there, your other friend barely spoke to her, was off with her and rude and made her feel uncomfortable. Not to mention failed to discipline her son correctly because he kept hitting the little girl despite being ‘gentle parented’ 🙄

If I was girl mum, and you stayed completely neutral despite the glaringly obvious errors of the boy mum, which you have admitted yourself, I don’t think I’d want to maintain a friendship with you anyway because I’d feel utterly let down and unsupported by you - not really a friend I’d want tbh.

So by staying neutral, you run the risk of damaging both friendships anyway. So I would, as kindly as possible, tell boy mum, your supposed ‘friend’ the truth. I’d do it tactfully obviously, but I would say ‘Xs behaviour was really challenging and I’m not sure I agree with your position here. I know it’s hard because we’re intrinsically wired to defend our own but I think once you’ve had some time to reflect on XYZ scenarios you might see it a little differently, because I was honestly quite shocked by how cold you were to a friend of mine, particularly one that had a new baby and could have done with some additional support’ etc

And I would reassure girl mum that you agree other friends behaviour was a little off, and apologise the trip didn’t go as planned etc and her little girl kept getting hit, and reassure her you understand her position and agree with it.

But that’s me, the next time you go away it could kick off between your boys and let’s face it, it’s going to be all your kids fault isn’t it? Is that a friend you even want? A ticking time bomb unable to think objectively or be rational? 🤷🏼‍♀️ I’d nip it in the bud now x

Well that should be the case, but not the impression I got from the OP and lots of comments

I would say that I don’t want to discuss it and why. If I was really pushed, I’d say what I think… Which in my case would be that children absolutely need to be told off if they hit people.

Haha. You should have seen my niece in action at this age. It was unbelievable.

In any given room she would identify whatever toy was most prized by the other child and seemingly oblivious would take it or take parts of it and play with it conspicuously.

Her mother would say 'ah, she's so oblivious' (to the upset she's causing) and her father would mutter 'she's not oblivious '

Don't get involved - don't be drawn into conversation, tell them it's between them to sort out, or not, if they prefer.

Wow! I stand corrected!

ALL children will want and play with the most coveted thing. It’s part of positional value. A thing is valuable because X wants it/has it/values it. It’s the same reason people buy shapewear for 20 times the price from a Kardasian. It’s not because it’s better!

Positioning girls as Machiavellian geniuses for doing completely normal childlike things is misogyny, plain as day. And saying that they should be/could be/would be hit because of them is justifying VAWG based on misogyny.

When people ask why men continue to murder women every week, HOW DOES IT HAPPEN? Misogyny + trauma = VAWG.

I know they are only 4 but…. If the message mum keeps giving is “I know you only hit her because she was winding you up” it’s telling him it’s ok to hit when he’s frustrated by a girl. He’s not going to learn a different way to handle it. Is she still going to justify his hitting in 20 years when he’s hit his girlfriend because she wound him up? I’d also be a little concerned that your son will copy his behaviour, perhaps not now but at some point in the future. It’s well known that kids pick up behaviour not just from their parents but also from their peers. If he continues to see his friend hit and it be justified is there a risk he will start to see it as ok? Or equally will the friend one day turn on son if your son doesn’t back him up? Hitting girls might lead to hitting anyone who doesn’t agree with him or do what he wants. I know this sounds like I’m turning a molehill into a mountain and this doesn’t automatically lead to that. I know they’re only 4 and some kids learn to control their emotions later and maybe he will, but he needs guidance to help him achieve that and it doesn’t sound like he’s getting it. I’d keep a close eye on that friendship if it was me. I understand you are good friends with the mum but that doesn’t automatically make her son a good friend for your son, sad though that is. For now I’d just stay out of the argument and refuse to take sides, if necessary meet them separately for now. But just watch the behaviour going forward and be prepared to act if it’s not healthy for your son.

All sounds rather pathetic. Go away without the children. Sorted.

This is between the 2 of them but if the boy mum was present and saw what was happening whereas the girl mum was busy with the baby and only has her child's version of events I'd be more willing to believe an adult over a child
And 4 year old girls are really really manipulative! And I say this as a girl mum!

My advice is to stay out of it!