Trying to salvage friendships after a terrible holiday

[ChaosIsMyCardo]

Hi, this is my first post. I am hoping someone can help me unpick a disastrous trip with some friends and our kids that I'm worried may have ruined friendships and I'm not quite sure what to do.

I recently went on a two night trip away in the UK with two school friends and our kids. Each of us has a four yo and one also has a baby.

One of these friends has the same day off as me so we have spent lots of time together over the last four years and our boys have had lots of fun together. They both have quite different personalities (my son is very sensitive and can be shy, whereas hers is more assertive and outgoing) so they've occasionally had their moments, but generally they have a great time together.

The other friend has a 4yo daughter (and baby boy) and we don't see each other as often and we are quite different people, but there is a trust between us that comes from knowing each other since childhood.

So, we had all booked this trip as a nice little get together before the kids start school. I knew it wasn't going to be a relaxing break but I still thought we'd have some lovely moments and the mums would have a nice catch up. I was wrong!

As soon as we all arrived in the house, things seemed very fraught and stressful. The dynamics between the kids were in constant flux with seemingly one always left out (to be expected with three, I guess), but the primary conflict seemed to be between the boy and girl of my friends. They weren't getting along and the boy would often lash out at/hit the girl. The girl would then come and tell the boy's mum, who would admonish the boy not to hit, but I could tell she was becoming increasingly frustrated with scolding him.

She is a very "gentle " parent, very in tune with his needs and his biggest advocate (as any mum ought to be), and in her view, the girl was teasing and winding her son up, which was just as bad as hitting, and she was annoyed that only her son was being told off.
I think she was annoyed with the girls mum for not being more present to referee the older kids. This mum did however also have a 9mo to take care of.

The girls mum is very upset because, from her point of view, she witnessed the boy not being very nice towards her daughter and felt unable to say anything, and she acknowledges that they are all only four and these things are to be expected. She also feels upset because the boys mum did not really engage with her speak to her for the whole trip, and they have not really spoken since.

I know this is largely between them, but I am not sure what to do as they both want to talk to me about their thoughts on this. I want to be honest and supportive with both, without betraying the other.

I haven't been able to be completely honest with the boys mum as I think she has been quite unreasonable in the defense of her son (e.g. by criticising the other child in a way she would not accept from others about her child) rather than just acknowledging they are all four and this will happen.

I don't feel able to say this to her as she is very defended around this and I don't want to hurt her or risk our friendship.. As another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more (maybe, I dunno) I don't think she was intentionally malicious in any of this, but I do feel bad for the other friend who was essentially told her daughter is a shit stirrer and has now been ostracised by the boy mum, who is still very annoyed with her in a way that is quite irrational in my view.

Does anyone have any advice/ similar experience / insight into any of this?
Than you for reading if you got this far

Stay out of it. You have to be very careful who you go on holiday with kids I find. We had a couple of friends where we knew that we all had similar parenting styles and the kids all got on. We only ever went on holiday with them.

You realise this quite soon. Don’t go away with them again.

I will go against the grain and say sometimes the “innocent” seeming child is far from innocent! However, hitting is unacceptable and had I been Boy Mum I would’ve just hovered all the time while they were playing.

Unless that’s what Boy Mum did, and how she has come to the conclusion that Girl was winding him up? I have been on family holidays where one child is always telling on another and things aren’t as they seem, and it is exhausting, so I do have sympathy with Boy Mum if she in fact did witness Girl being really unkind to Boy and that was at the root of him lashing out.

Had I been in that position (some 4 year olds are still trying to control their temper at that age) I would’ve had to remove my DC and done activities away from the group, which would have made things very awkward!

Either way, echo all the advice you’ve had previously - stay out of it, neutral language.

Just say ‘ Oh my god, I really don’t want to get involved in this, it’s between the two of ye!’
Really don’t think much of either of these women for trying to get you involved and on their side

I would not get drawn into it.
Surely the time to address this was while you were all there together. Quite odd that the other two should choose to go away together to then effectively ignore each but oh well. The time has been and gone and what’s done is done.
Each of them going to you to rehash what happened are probably just processing their thoughts and not actively looking to you for advice or your point of view. I really don’t think any good would come of you pulling up either one of them or attempting to play mediator. They seem keen to avoid each other. That’s their choice but you don’t need fall outs of your own to deal with, because of them deciding they didn’t want to address this with each other.

Just stay out of it and refuse to be drawn in.

Honestly, I couldn't be bothered with this shit.

We once went on holiday with friends and their children (preschoolers and two 5 year olds). Both sets parented very differently and there were tensions straight away. After the holiday the friendship cooled quite a lot and it was several years before a level of contact slowly resumed, although it has repaired itself now and all of the children are adults.

Stay back from it, make clear that you won't be getting involved and give everything and everyone space. It will probably subside, if you let it

Christ sake. Stop this “boy mum” bullshit.

i have one of each. 4 is too old to hit more than once. The first time it happened, it should have been parented appropriately and not allowed to happen again. No excuses.

This is crazy. This boy was hitting a little girl and you and the boy's mum thinks she was asking for it?
You seem to agree that girls can provoke violence in their male playmates? For fun, is that the idea?
This is such a messed up dynamic.
I only have a son and I really hate the mum-of-boys speil where girls are painted as manipulative and difficult and our boys are so straighforward and loving and hey what's a bit of casual violence between four year olds??
In my world a four year old hitting other kids is not just one of those things that happens. It's really not good.
Sorry, no advice on how to salvage any of these friendships it all sounds way too toxic for me.

Don’t get involved

This exactly. If kids this age, particularly if they don’t know each other well, are falling out, being manipulative and hitting each other, the fault lies initially with the not so present adults. That’s the point that needs to be addressed. May be best if the friends meet up without the kids in the short term.

I agree 3 4 year olds who don't all know each other well.being together so much for a couple of days was a bad idea...but you live and learn !!

I think you should tell.both friends they need to grow up and not let the behaviour of 4 year olds impact their friendship

By the way my son was very rambunctious at 4 but he absolutely did not hit other children! And im.surprised you think this is normal .

Ultimately the adults should have taken control and stepped in to guide the play much more when it became clear that these very young children were struggling to regulate themselves.

I have one of each and detest the boy mum narrative, e.g they're more loving, they're more easygoing, they're just simpler. The internalised misogyny runs deep with these mums.
Presumably they also believe that men are 'visual creatures' that curiously cannot see overflowing bins, wash baskets, hungry children, homework diaries etc. What a conundrum!

Anyway. Based on your belief that the girl probably deserved to be hit multiple times because of x, y or z, I'm out, but perhaps this should be less about quarrelling adults post-holiday and more about the messages you'll no doubt foist upon your (reads Boy Mum notes) loving, easy, simple boy child about accountability, violence and how conniving and manipulative women are and that they deserve physical punishment.

Sounds me like the little girl found an effective way of getting some attention but regardless the boy should not be hitting - at 4 they are old enough to have other ways of dealing with provocation.

First poster gave good advice about a response to both that doesn't invite being drawn into the drama. If boy mum isn't happy about it that tells you something about her.

I'm sorry, tough situation to be in.

in her view, the girl was teasing and winding her son up, which was just as bad as hitting, and she was annoyed that only her son was being told off.

as another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more

I think you should read what you've said here and really think about what you are saying. Do you agree with your friend that winding someone up is as bad as hitting them? Do you really think girls are more complex/ clever and are secretly badly behaved?

I think boys are lovely and I think men can be lovely. But it is at this age when their bad behaviour is excused and defended when parents can really make a difference to what kind of man they are bringing up. In my (fairly considerable) experience boys' bad behaviour is often not dealt with firmly and is instead explained away by 'boys will be boys' 'boys are just different, they're so much more physical' etc when they are not told not to do it enough. I'm a fan of gentleness generally with small kids, partly because they know you mean it when you are firm. Kids using violence need to be told no very firmly, whatever the supposed reason for them doing it. It is perfectly possible to tell someone off firmly while still thinking they're a good person and then discuss how they were feeling later. I think you're backing the wrong friend here.

As another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more (maybe, I dunno) I don't think she was intentionally malicious in any of this, but I do feel bad for the other friend who was essentially told her daughter is a shit stirrer

You think the 4 year old girl maliciously taunted another 4 year old into hitting her multiple times.

Blame your sexist bullshit and some shitty supervision and parenting for a 4 year old boy hitting a 4 year old girl multiple times. You're coming really close to blaming the victim because "boy mom" boys will be boys sexist mindset and your friendceith the violent son is already there.

That's the real problem here, not your friends venting.

I switched off once you said girls are ‘more complex and get away with more’….???????

how are you saying this?? Girls actually aren’t ‘complex’ we’re ( I’m guessing you’re a woman) just a bit more emotionally switched on than boys at that age, I think there’s good and bad traits between sexes at this age.

I think you’ve clearly got an opinion on both parenting styles and children’s behaviour with these two friends.

I went away with 3 others, all had same ages apart from one was a bit younger, All girls.

Its ruined our friendship and I doubt I’ll ever do something like that again.

Everyone’s parenting styles is different, you have kids that are crazy and loud in the mornings and don’t listen as much or kids that are quieter and might like their own space.

If you want to try and help your friends past this then you need to help guide them both, hash it out, invite them over for tea, no kids, talk it out.
If you can’t see a way of this resolving then leave it.

When I say emotionally switched on I mean from my experiences ( I have a DD) she’s a roller coaster of emotions at the moment.

Children fall out, especially 4 year olds. At that age they are only really beginning to navigate 'friendships'. They don't have the skills that older children have to deal with conflict. You can't expect 3, 4 year olds to play together nicely without any hiccups along the way. It sounds as if the boy and the girl involved, don't really know each other particularly well either. The children are different with individual personalities, and sometimes children clash and don't get on. One of the children has a very young sibling too, which is something they are navigating emotionally. Honestly, this isn't your problem to solve! It's between the other two women, and you'd be better off, not involving yourself. Don't allow yourself to become 'peacemaker' or 'piggy in the middle'. They are both grown adults, who needs to sort this out themselves.

Don't get involved, they will shoot the messenger and bond over criticizing you. If they ask you directly, I would just say it's a shame the kids didn't get on better, and hopefully they will grow out of it.

I don't actually think hitting is 'to be expected' beyond the age of 2. Arguing and tantrums, yes, but my child knew not to hit others at 4.

You will not be able to control how the other women feel towards each other now. If they bring the situation up with you individually just acknowledge it was a bit of a nightmare but don't get into specifics.

Stay out of it.
The boy slapping repeatedly is completely unacceptable.

If you thought it ok for my daughter to bee hit repeatedly I would avoid you going forward.

I have bys and girls.
No slapping.
The End.

4 is far too old for that.
You are extremely sexist in your view IMO.
Your friend is a bit batshit.

I hope the girls mum avoids you both going forward.
Your values are not something I would want to be around.

Have a serious rethink.

Stay out of it, and I would suggest distancing yourself from bit mother. This time it was the girl and her mother who bore the brunt of the so-called gentle parenting. Next time it’ll be you and your boy. And whatever it is at 4yo, it’ll be a multiple of that at 8 yo and on.

It’s too late for you to be involved now, why weren’t you involved at the time this behaviour was going on.
Other PP’s have already covered the boy / girl bollocks but why when ( for whatever reason) the children weren’t able to play well together not one of the 3 adults there bothered to supervise them more closely?

I would stay well out of this, say you arent commenting on it if either try to talk to you about it, except to say that in hindsight three kids in a house who are not all good friends usually was not the best of plans and you hope they can resolve it. Me and my friendship group from school don't bring our kids together, we only go out together without the kids. Because the kids are not friends and have not chosen to be together. And we can't even get a conversation in anyway with them all running about.

Please stop over analysing and move on. Let them have their issue to resolve and don't be drawn in. Otherwise you'll fan the flames, they'll likely resolve it over time if there's no one else going on about it.

Just stay out of it. Just say as lightheartedly as you can ‘yeah, it was a bit full on, wasn’t it!’ Then don’t say a word to either of them and don’t go on holiday with the pair of them again until the kids are older.